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since 1997 | by maryann johanson

‘Doctor Who’ not-blogging: “Journey’s End”

I dunno what to say.

I hate Russell Davies, and I love him. Much as I hate the Doctor, and love him.

After that opening bit, which felt so anticlimactic — and after I spent a week with my stomach in knots — I felt this by the middle of the episode: that if I did not want to draw-and-quarter Davies by the end because he’d tortured us and jerked us around and been so mean to us, I would want to draw-and-quarter him for managing to pull this all off and not make me want to do that. If you see what I mean.
The end, for you-know-who… It’s so much more tragic than I had imagined it could be.

And the not-end, for the other you-know-how (on the beach with the new friend) … Also so much more tragic than I had ever anticipated.

This is the important thing that I ended the episode with: I half feared that however this turned out, I wouldn’t be able to enjoy Hamlet with David Tennant this fall. But that scene, the one that the image above is from, when the Doctor is angry and griefstricken and guilty and a total fucking mess? It made me realize that I will never, ever be able to hate Tennant, because he’s brilliant. Which I also saw in the other scenes, ahem, on the TARDIS with Donna. When he shows what a wonderful comic mimic he is. I simply love him — Tennant, I mean — and I can’t now imagine ever not loving him, and I’m ashamed that I ever thought I might not.

Oh, and then there’s this: As awful and heartbreaking as this all is — I was in tears by the end — again I can’t imagine how Davies got into my head and knew how my fan fiction was going, even the stuff I haven’t yet written. It’s spooky… because it’s going to be so easy to slot my new stories in around this. Which is weird. Someone tell him to get out of my brain.

(Feel free to spoil in the comments, and so don’t read the comments if you don’t want to have it all ruined for you. Oh, and I’ll continue my more in-depth Doctor Who blogging later this week, with “Midnight” when it airs on the Sci Fi Channel here in the U.S. this coming Friday, July 11.)

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  • Maddie

    I was SOBBING at the end. Donna’s fate absolutely wrecked me. I just can’t think of anything worse. I mean, I know there’s a whole life-saving thing going on, but I’d rather just die than have everything that made my life have meaning be taken away like that.

    Argh, now I’m thinking about it again and tearing up.

  • Lisa

    How horrible was that beach goodbye It was so pianful

    I can’t watch it without crying

    and then Donna…

    but more importantly Wilf Bernard Cribbens who really brings it home what happens to her

    I hate RTD, Billie Piper and most of all David Tennant

  • Susan

    Sorry, RTD, but that was just an AWFUL thing to do to Donna! She deserved better … and I’m hoping that somehow she recovers her memories of her time with the Doctor (without the last bits, of course). Ha! Maybe Jenny will come along and rescue Donna’s memories – then they can go off together and have grand adventures!

  • boz

    At the beginning of the episode, Jack’s face. John Barrowman just showed what we all feel about that moment.

  • Les Carr

    It was just wonderful – I loved the way that RTD lined all his ducks up in a row, and then imprisoned them in Dalek holding cells.I loved the way that the easy solutions were easily neutralised. I loved the way that the remaining get-out-of-jail-free card was so clearly signposted throughout the series, but hidden in plain sight. I loved the audacity of the climax (“that button there”). I was whooping and laughing and crying- the whole thing was just so much FUN and so THRILLING.

    At the same time I found the Rose – Doctor ending somewhat chilling. Despite what the Dotor says to Rose it’s not his alter ego who looks like he needs mending – he seems very in touch with his emotions. Then again that’s just my very human perspective. He (after all) is supposed to be fire and ice and rage and wonderful.

  • Karen

    I wouldn’t have tried to save Davros at the end, I would have tried to save Caan.

  • Carey

    I love the part with everyone in the TARDIS flying it all together- how wonderful was that?! Now I want a new series with Rose and Doctor/2. I don’t want to just know they get their ‘happily ever after’, I want to see it! OK, I know, a series just about them would be completely boring… but still…

  • Gina

    MaryAnn, this is my first comment posted. I LOVE your Dr Who blogs. I can’t wait to see your posts AFTER the episode airs.
    You are making me crazy posting about episodes that have aired in the UK but have not aired on Sci-Fi yet. *Sigh* I just had to get that out.

  • i couldn’t sleep after seeing this episdoe! every time i closed my eyes, i saw the doctor’s devestated face as he was leaving rose with some “portion” of himself… and i agree, Les Carr, the half-doctor was not the one that needed care and attention. as for Donna — the doctor is a bastard! life alone is not enough — Donna wanted to be *living*! maybe she would have chosen to die (a theme running through some of *my* fan fiction — thanks lumps RTD and get the hell out of my head too, if you don’t mind!).

    i love the line after the “regeneration” where the Doctor says, “Why would I change? I mean — look at me!”

    one thing i am hoping came out of all this — please, please, PLEASE — no more Dalek stories! enough already! and let’s hope the Christmas episode does the same for the Cybermen…. new enemies and new planets, please!

    AND, oh, can i just say, i am madly in love… madly, sadly, pathetically. David Tennant. and the Doctor. and DavidTennant/Doctor.

  • Ryan H

    Couple thoughts on this episode

    Names are obviously important in the Doctor’s world. Time Lords pick their own while at the same time the Doctor’s is a secret. What does it mean for the Doctor to have been so named by Davros?

    The one who died. Everyone seems to be assuming that it meant Donna. I think the Child of Time that ‘dies’ is the Doctor clone who is doomed to a single life.

    In a lot of ways, the Doctor really is a hypocrite when convenient. He isn’t a ‘nice’ person. Amazing and wonderful, but not not nice.

    Finally, it occurred to me again just how amazingly high the body count is on this show. I don’t think there has been a single episode without at least a couple fatalities. Considering this is a family show, that’s quite something.

  • Ryan H

    Oh, and the final scene, with Wilfred and the Doctor int he rain was the defining Doctor scene of the episode for me. The doctor standing in the rain saying he’s fine and leaving behind one more disciple who would do anything.

  • MaryAnn

    At the same time I found the Rose – Doctor ending somewhat chilling. Despite what the Dotor says to Rose it’s not his alter ego who looks like he needs mending – he seems very in touch with his emotions.

    Chilling isn’t the word. What a terrible thing to do to Rose, leave her with a simulation of him. That other man is NOT the Doctor (he even LOOKS different!), and she knows it. And what about him? If he has the Doctor’s personality and the Doctor’s memories, how is he going to deal with staying in one place and one time? He’s going to be miserable — he’s going to end up a shell of a shadow of what the Doctor is.

    He isn’t a ‘nice’ person.

    No, he isn’t. Not at all.

  • What a terrible thing to do to Rose, leave her with a simulation of him. That other man is NOT the Doctor (he even LOOKS different!), and she knows it. And what about him? If he has the Doctor’s personality and the Doctor’s memories, how is he going to deal with staying in one place and one time? He’s going to be miserable — he’s going to end up a shell of a shadow of what the Doctor is.

    MaryAnn this is far too depressing a perspective! It’s entirely possible that the Doctor and Rose will find a very happy equilibrium, and I’m certain that was (at least) the intent. It’s not like they could just get rid of him, right?

    The regeneration was bogus, of course, but in the end I found that it didn’t matter as much as I’d expected. It was a fine episode, easily Davies’ best.

  • Martin

    I found it interesting that of all the companions, of all the people that the Doctor has met over the four series, it’s Wilf that’s the one to ask the Doctor if he’s going to be alright. Everyone else swans off with their own lives but it’s lovely old Wilf that actually cares for the Doctor as a ‘person’. Maybe because he’s such an alien nut he was more accepting of the Doctor as a person.

    And I know that RTD needed to wrap up Rose’s story quickly but did she have to kiss him? As has been said, this isn’t the Doctor she remembers (and since he’s “mortal”, is he going to be so willing to risk his life?) and looking and sounding like him isn’t enough. Maybe their relationship will last but this isn’t the man Rose fell in love with. The Doctor would never say that he loves her but Doctor 2 can and that’s a crucial difference. The Doctor is the lonely rebel that we can’t have. Doctor 2 is the nice guy that will never leave us and whilst that’s probably better for settling down with, that’s not the guy you love.

    And please, Moffat, I beg of you; when you threaten to kill off a character, please have the decency to actually go through with it. I’ve had enough of RTD and his metaphoric deaths (although Donna’s is far more final than Rose’s).

    Why was Torchwood left to sit it out?

    Other than that? Cracking episode. Lots of great geeky moments, Catherine Tate finally winning me over completely and Daleks speaking German. What more could you need?

  • MaryAnn

    MaryAnn this is far too depressing a perspective!

    It’s the only one I can see.

    It’s entirely possible that the Doctor and Rose will find a very happy equilibrium

    A happy one? I doubt that. A mildly contented one that acknowledges that this is the best they can hope for? Maybe.

    RTD needed to wrap up Rose’s story quickly but did she have to kiss him?

    Actually, Rose’s greeting of the Doctor after he came out of the false regeneration is when she should have kissed *him.* How could she not? It seems to me that she did not react to her sudden reuniting with him as powerfully as I would have expected… and the Doctor seems actively suspicious of her through the rest of the episode — he’s pretty cold toward her. Could be that it’s just that their relationship is now broken beyond repair, and they both realize that, but then that’s something interesting — and depressing and miserable — too.

  • Poly in London

    “of all the people that the Doctor has met over the four series, it’s Wilf that’s the one to ask the Doctor if he’s going to be alright”.
    I hadn’t quite thought of that, but you are right. Lovely Wilf. What a beautiful scene by both of them. I hope that the Doctor will come back and get Wilf for a spin. Imagine the mischief the two of them can get into.

  • Martin

    “Could be that it’s just that their relationship is now broken beyond repair, and they both realize that, but then that’s something interesting — and depressing and miserable — too.”

    I think so. But isn’t that the way of the world? In Rose’s absence, the Doctor learned to move on. It looks like Rose didn’t. Whilst it was nice for the Doctor to have a fawning doe-eyed school girl to be crushed upon and worshipped, he had Donna to give him a kicking if he deserved it. And whilst adoration is awesome, it gets boring.

    I think that any emotion the Doctor might feel towards Rose is over-ridden by the Doctor’s intellect. For him, Rose is a double edged sword. On the more personal side, it’s great to see her back but on the more universal scale, it’s terrible that she’s back, because it means something has gone horribly wrong. And the Doctor has to think of the Universe first. I wonder if the Doctor feels a pang of jealousy for his clone, he doesn’t have the weight of the universe on his shoulders?
    I doubt it. To paraphrase Sarah Jane in school reunion, it’s worth the monsters.

  • Martin

    “I hope that the Doctor will come back and get Wilf for a spin. Imagine the mischief the two of them can get into.”

    Me too. But I doubt he’d risk the damage to Donna.

  • Weimlady

    I hope that the Doctor will come back and get Wilf for a spin. Imagine the mischief the two of them can get into.

    Poly, my thought exactly. Wilf would make an outstanding companion, as would have Mr. Copper from Voyage of the Damned. BTW, did you notice that the “Mr. Copper Foundation” was mentioned in Journey’s End as having funded something–I think it was the Osterhagen project?

  • Martin

    “BTW, did you notice that the “Mr. Copper Foundation” was mentioned in Journey’s End as having funded something–I think it was the Osterhagen project?”

    I thought it was the Subwave network.

  • Weimlady

    Questions:

    Doc 10.2 didn’t seem to get any say in his fate. Did that seem odd to anyone else? Do you suppose they had a private off-camera confab on the way to Bad Wolf Bay and he said, “Sure, I’m okay with being exiled to a parallel universe without a TARDIS where I have to live a human life, contrary to everything I am, just because I love Rose so much?” Or was it more of a sentence imposed by the real Doctor for 10.2’s supposed crime of genocide? (What the **** do you DO with an army of Daleks if you don’t kill them off? Send them all to prison?) And if it was a sentence, then why did 10.2 meekly accept it? Our Doc never would have, and 10.2 is the Doctor + Donna and you know THAT addition isn’t going to make him any meeker!

    Why is it that a Time Lord/Human cross is sustainable while a Human/Time Lord one isn’t? And how does wiping Donna’s memories take away the fact that she has the Doctor’s mind now? Surely a mind is more than memories.

    I too absolutely loved the “Oi, Space Boy!” “Oi, Earth Girl!” scene–not to mention Catherine Tate’s delivery of her “You’re naked!” line. Perfection. This was really her episode. Loved seeing her come into her own, terribly sad seeing her go back to her old self, but maybe that’s to leave a door open for her to come back. What if the memories start trickling back, not coming back in a flood and burning her up, but just enough that Wilf knows there’s trouble brewing, and sets out to contact the Doctor. The Doctor, meanwhile, has slapped himself on the forehead at some point and said, “I didn’t have to wipe her memories, I could have just done [whatever] and she would have been fine.” Maybe an off-on switch of some sort for the Time Lord consciousness in her? So she’s just Donna most of the time, but in a crisis she can call on the Doctor’s mind for help? With the caveat that if she stays in “on” for too long or does it too often she’ll burn up her synapses?

    What a great show. Thanks for giving me a place to talk about it with fellow obsessees, MaryAnn!

  • Weimlady

    Martin said:

    I thought it was the Subwave network.

    Thanks, Martin, that sounds right. I’ve only watched it twice and didn’t focus on that part.

  • Martin

    “Doc 10.2 didn’t seem to get any say in his fate. Did that seem odd to anyone else? Do you suppose they had a private off-camera confab on the way to Bad Wolf Bay and he said, “Sure, I’m okay with being exiled to a parallel universe without a TARDIS where I have to live a human life, contrary to everything I am, just because I love Rose so much?” Or was it more of a sentence imposed by the real Doctor for 10.2’s supposed crime of genocide? (What the **** do you DO with an army of Daleks if you don’t kill them off? Send them all to prison?) And if it was a sentence, then why did 10.2 meekly accept it? Our Doc never would have, and 10.2 is the Doctor + Donna and you know THAT addition isn’t going to make him any meeker!”

    Because there’s a part of the Doctor that wants to stay with Rose?
    But that is also an interesting point, not only is this a ‘mortal’ Doctor, he’s also a Doctor that has a little bit of Donna in him. Is Rose going to like this new flavour?

    “Why is it that a Time Lord/Human cross is sustainable while a Human/Time Lord one isn’t? And how does wiping Donna’s memories take away the fact that she has the Doctor’s mind now? Surely a mind is more than memories.”

    I assume that it’s easier for a God to become Human than it is for a Human to become God.

    If Donna can’t remember the fact that she’s part Time Lord, she can never access that part of her brain.

    But you never know…

  • Martin

    “Thanks, Martin, that sounds right. I’ve only watched it twice and didn’t focus on that part.”

    No problem. There’s a lot to keep track of in the last two episodes.

  • Weimlady

    One more thing (sorry)–

    I’d have preferred it if they had explained the partial regeneration without making the Doctor sound so vain. I mean, the last time he regenerated he nearly didn’t make it (was down to one heart working) so it probably isn’t something he looks forward to doing again. Especially if he doesn’t have a cuppa tea handy. And he really didn’t have time to deal with regeneration shock when the fate of the universe was on his shoulders, did he? So, he may have tossed it off with a flip, “Why change? Look at me!” to treat the fans, but there really were better reasons not to go through the full process. Not to mention it sets up the rest of the story and the ultimate saving of all of reality. (Hmm, you suppose unreality was at risk too?)

  • Weimlady

    Martin said:

    I wonder if the Doctor’s going to keep some genetic material of his around the TARDIS now, just in case.

    Well, he’s lived there a long time. There’s bound to be the odd shed skin cell or hair around unless he’s an immaculate TARDIS-keeper. How much regeneration energy could be siphoned off into them is a question though. :-)

  • Gary

    One thing that nobody has commented on so far is the parallel of Rose/10.5 with Jackie and alt.Pete. Both Jackie and Pete seemed to take the attitude “what the hell – close enough” and perhaps the Doctor expected Rose to react the same. But then, Jackie and Pete made their own choices while Rose pretty much had 10.5 foisted on her…

  • MaryAnn

    Jackie and Pete aren’t quite the same thing. Jackie’s new Pete is an alternate version of Pete, but he’s still essentially Pete. This clone Doctor is not merely an “alternate” Doctor: he’s fundamentally different, what with being half(ish) human — or at least half(ish) Donna — and all. Just the fact, alone, that the clone Doctor doesn’t even appear to protest his being dumped on an alternate Earth, condemned to remain there for the rest of his natural (if short) life, suggests that he’s *very* different from the Doctor indeed.

  • MaryAnn

    Thanks for giving me a place to talk about it with fellow obsessees, MaryAnn!

    Delighted. Though it’s mostly merely that I cannot keep my mouth shut about it.

    He’d rather crack a joke than open up that armour of his.

    Yes, exactly. As Donna said in “The Doctor’s Daughter,” he talks all the time but he never really *says* anything, certainly nothing about himself and how he really feels about anything.

  • Poly in London

    “He isn’t a ‘nice’ person.”
    Having seen Tennant in a few things, I think his instincts are, given half a chance by the script, not to play nice. And because he is very likeable on screen, he can make his Doctor strange, aloof, a bit cold, a bit callous, without losing the audience. It makes for such a rich portrayal.

  • On a lighter note, the Daleks speaking German reminded me of this Bill Bailey sketch

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfMVFp-SAlQ

    Exterminez-vous! Exterminez-vous encore!

  • Weimlady

    The Daleks speaking German just seemed natural to me, since they’ve always been little tin Nazis.

  • Martin

    “The Daleks speaking German just seemed natural to me, since they’ve always been little tin Nazis.”

    I find it very considerate of an invading fleet to be multi-lingual.

    Can anyone tell me the significance of Germany? Everything else seemed to be a reference to something so why Germany?

  • Dave

    After this episode I now have some hope for the next Torchwood, that is if Mikey joins up.

  • angel

    I found Donna’s fate profoundly disturbing, but perfect in terms of drama.

    Like the Ninth Doctor, his arc creates a perfect ending for itself with his regeneration, and, although I would have adored another year of Christopher Eccleson, it was right and fitting that the Doctor had to sacrifice himself to save Rose.

    For Donna, after becoming the most important human in the universe, it becomes impossible for her to sustain the energy if the Time Lord brain. She must forget, in order to live. But WE (and the Doctor) remember and that creates the tragedy. It’s a tragedy of unfulfilled potential. Simply having her die would have been terribly sad; continuing her life with no memory of her courage and ability elevates her to a tragic heroine.

    And because of this incredible tragedy, we mourn what she was and could have continued to be. So Donna becomes one of the most significant companions in the Doctor’s long life.

    I actually loved/hated that RTD did this… it certainly wasn’t the easy choice (unlike 10.2/Rose).

  • Les Carr

    A nice doctor?

    I suppose that in the (Journey’s) end, both Donna and Rose found out that you can’t squeeze a timelord into the capacity of a human. A doctor who is able to love Rose to the exclusion of the universe is not the wonderful, wild, fire and ice doctor that we fell in love with. And a timelord in human form can only live by forgetting what (s)he fully is.

    Christopher Ecclestone’s doctor said that he didn’t “do domestic”. Rose pulled him in that direction, Martha wanted to but couldn’t and Donna didn’t want to try. In the end, Rose couldn’t live without demanding it, which separated them more completely than the parallel universes had. And when he left her on the beach HE DIDN’T TURN BACK.

    So, what kind of companion they will RTD give him now? Or will he be alone for the specials until Moffat takes over?

  • Weimlady

    So, what kind of companion will RTD give him now? Or will he be alone for the specials until Moffat takes over?

    It would be fun if they experimented with some unusual companions for the specials. Something like that little red spikey cyborg from Voyage of the Damned, for example. (Sorry, I forget his name–and I know that would have ticked him off royally.) Or an older companion, as suggested above. Only problem with that is all the running companions have to do! But, the Doctor made Queen Victoria hustle around, so he could manage to get an older companion moving. Maybe a sonic walker? Hang on to the bar and….wheee!!! You’re flying! LOL

  • Jackie

    I get the feeling that 10.5 felt that he was in a bit of a tricky situation. It was interesting to see his initial disgust (horror even?) at discovering that he wasn’t a full Timelord, but had the memories and knowledge of his Timlord self and that was the point when he went into motormouth mode, covering up his real feelings with spouts of words and activity.

    10.5 knows better than anybody the capabilities of a full Timelord and knew what the Doctor could choose to do to a half-human version of himself. Looks to me that he took his one chance and worked out that it was better than the likely alternatives and besides he was now capable of trying a relationship with a human and given his knowledge would probably shortly be able to get some way of exploring this new Universe in his now-limited lifespan.

  • I see another Dave has joined us. I knew this would happen one day, so from now on I’ll be signing in as Proper Dave.

  • Les Carr

    Thinking over a nice cup of tea (a cup of tea can be nice, but never The Doctor) I realise that we have seen the Doctor “doing domestic” while being human and timelordnessless as John Smith in Human Nature/Family of Blood.

    We have also seen evidence of him falling in love as a timelord (in the future, with River Song), but their relationship hardly seems to have been characterized by settling down and taking out a mortgage.

  • And please, Moffat, I beg of you; when you threaten to kill off a character, please have the decency to actually go through with it. I’ve had enough of RTD and his metaphoric deaths (although Donna’s is far more final than Rose’s).

    But it wasn’t Donna’s “death” that Dalek Caan foretold, it was his own… Dalek Caan was the “most loyal of companions” He helped the Doctor to destroy the Daleks. He has always been there to guide the Doctor and Donna to this point.

  • Weimlady

    But it wasn’t Donna’s “death” that Dalek Caan foretold, it was his own… Dalek Caan was the “most loyal of companions” He helped the Doctor to destroy the Daleks. He has always been there to guide the Doctor and Donna to this point.

    Oooooh, Ken. Brilliant.

  • Weimlady

    Why, when the Doctor took Donna home, did he end up crumpled on the front step, looking up at Wilf, saying “Help me?”

    The Doc may be skinny, but he’s strong. He carried Martha Jones through the hospital on the moon when he’d just been bled out by a vampire and had no oxygen to breathe, to boot. Donna may have a few pounds on Martha, but the Doctor was not operating under any physical handicap this time so you’d think he’d turn up at the door with her in his capable arms. He’d gotten her from the TARDIS to the front door on his own, after all.

    Were they just going for the pathos of him looking up at Wilf with cocker-spaniel eyes? Or was the Doc perhaps not as fully recovered from the Dalek blast as he wanted us to think, possibly due to regeneration interruptus? Or was he just crushed by the weight of his sorrow at what had happened to Donna and the knowledge that he had lost his most perfect travelling companion–a half human/half Time Lady?

  • Melina

    Personally, I loved Donna saying “Ohh yes.” Perfect mimicry.

    The beach scene left me a total mess. On the surface it seems like we’re almost meant to take it as good news, and the music swells when Rose kisses the half-human Doctor, but the cuts back to the real Doctor’s face absolutely destroyed me. David Tennant might be the most expressive actor on the planet.

    There’s a whole lot to that scene – on some level, I think the Doctor’s imagining a different life entirely, vicariously through this look-alike, and it’s touching to think that if he only had one life and none of his issues he’d want to spend it with Rose. But it’s also amazing how everything (the editing, the acting, the emphasis) made you sort of ignore the Doctor clone. That scene was about the Doctor, the proper Doctor, and it was brutal.

    (p.s. MaryAnn, love your blogging!)

  • Ken

    If he has the Doctor’s personality and the Doctor’s memories, how is he going to deal with staying in one place and one time? He’s going to be miserable — he’s going to end up a shell of a shadow of what the Doctor is.

    Ask #3

  • Weimlady

    This doesn’t fit this thread but I don’t know where it does fit and this is the most active thread so I’m putting it here. Hope that’s okay.

    For anyone who gets BBC America, The Graham Norton Show with David Tennant airs at 3 AM on July 8. If you haven’t see this, you should. Hilarious! And Saturday, July 12 at 10 PM Catherine Tate is his guest. That one is new so can’t vouch for it but I’m sure it will be worth watching.

  • MaryAnn

    Simply having her die would have been terribly sad; continuing her life with no memory of her courage and ability elevates her to a tragic heroine.

    I had previously thought that the worst thing that could have happened to Donna was that she experienced something so awful at the Doctor’s side that she would voluntarily chose to leave him, hence discovering that there was, in fact, something that could make her choose not to travel with him forever.

    I was wrong. The fate RTD concocted for her is worse.

    A doctor who is able to love Rose to the exclusion of the universe is not the wonderful, wild, fire and ice doctor that we fell in love with.

    But didn’t we always know that?

    Or was he just crushed by the weight of his sorrow

    Yes, it was that.

  • t6

    I loved this season finale, really did.

    And I hope I’m not being blasphemous…but I don’t like the Doctor as God thing they did all over the last season finale…that was too much. I want my doctor to be a Time Lord, not Jesus.

    So I loved it that this season finale didn’t have any of that.

    And I need to just say (after having watched the entire season over the course of two days) Catherine Tate is a really, really fine actor…and I wasn’t expecting that. I love her comedy (Lauren Cooper ftw)…but her drama is mighty fine indeed. I hope she gets some more meaty work.

  • Well, this episode certainly was interesting, wasn’t it? (Understatement of the year.)

    NOT SPOILERS

    Donna: Well, at least they didn’t kill her off for cheap emotional effect, which was my major fear. And yay, she got to save the universe even if she doesn’t remember it.

    Davros: Yes, RTD, I just love it when mad villains who have just announced their intentions to murder almost every known being in the universe choose to lecture the Doctor on morality.

    Jackie: Like her daughter, she too is saving the Earth from the scum of the universe.

    * Cue Danny Elfman theme. *

    Mickey: Well, they put off the eventual hookup between him and Martha as long as possible but they just had to go there, right?

    Rose: Actually she got a pretty happy ending compared to Donna. But she didn’t get to save the universe, oh darn!

    Jack: Well, I must admit I didn’t really care what happened to him…;-)

  • Hank Graham

    I just wanted to second something you’re pointing out, and which most people haven’t quite gotten, about how good Tennant is.

    I just caught him, accidentally, channel flipping and happening upon his work as Barty Crouch Jr in the Harry Potter movie. He had, what, three minutes of screen time? And you remember him vividly as a nasty, lizardy bastard.

    I’ve heard a lots of folks be dismissive of him, and comparing him unfavorably to Chris Eccleston, but I don’t think they’re paying close enough attention.

    I envy you getting to see him in Hamlet. Blog about it, okay?

  • Barb Gorczyca

    I enjoyed it but did not like the way they handled Donna’s departure – wiping all memory of the Doctor and going back to the shrill, unlikeable Donna. What a major and positive influence the Doctor had on her and it’s gone. In a way, it’s a throwback to the when Jamie and Zoe’s memories were wiped after War Games.

    I really liked the DoctorDonna scenes but Doctor 10.2 really didn’t have much screen time other than to do what #4 couldn’t do to the Daleks. The only one who got a happy ending (of sorts) was Rose.

    Other comments:
    -Liked that Doctor/Rose noticed Gwen looked familiar (a descendant).
    -What can I say about Wilf – while he was only in a handful of episodes, he always stole the show and his last scene with the Doctor – sniffle.
    -Martha in Germany – not really necessary (just there for Davros to make a point to the Doctor about him and his companions).
    -The way Davros’ makeup was done, I kept thinking Star Wars and Emperor(??).
    -No reset – yes!!!

    Now we have to wait six months for the next special. Time to bring out the DVDs…

  • Poly in London

    “What a major and positive influence the Doctor had on her and it’s gone.”

    My theory is that the Doctor’s positive influence will work now through her mother and Wilf. They know what Donna doesn’t. They will push her to do what they know she can. And given that Donna’s relationship with her mother had always been an obstacle in her life, that change will have a huge positive impact. Donna will reach her potential away from the Doctor, and because of her meeting with him, although she won’t know that. That’s my theory and I am sticking to it.

  • MaryAnn

    Catherine Tate is a really, really fine actor…and I wasn’t expecting that. I love her comedy (Lauren Cooper ftw)…but her drama is mighty fine indeed.

    Yes yes yes.

    Barty Crouch Jr in the Harry Potter movie. He had, what, three minutes of screen time? And you remember him vividly as a nasty, lizardy bastard.

    Indeed. In fact, that was my reaction when I heard who was going to be replacing Eccleston: *Eww, that slimy guy from Harry Potter?* Needless to say, I was delighted to see that Barty Crouch was just a hint of his range, not the only thing he was capable of;.

    I’ve heard a lots of folks be dismissive of him, and comparing him unfavorably to Chris Eccleston, but I don’t think they’re paying close enough attention.

    Perhaps those who’ve seen him only in DW don’t realize how truly amazing and versatile an actor he is.

    I envy you getting to see him in Hamlet. Blog about it, okay?

    Just try and stop me. :->

    The way Davros’ makeup was done, I kept thinking Star Wars and Emperor(??).

    Except Davros long predates the Emperor, so perhaps it’s a matter of Lucas stealing from DW…

  • Weimlady

    What a major and positive influence the Doctor had on her and it’s gone.

    That’s funny, I just watched Fires of Pompeii for the first time, and I’d have to turn this on its head. What a major and positive influence she was on the Doctor, and it’s gone. Who does he have now to say, “Save someone” and pull him out of his self-absorbed despair over his inability to save everyone by making him realize that, by saving one person, one family, you’re saving a world.

    That was her first official adventure with him. I don’t think his influence could be credited for her standing up to him, her fierce determination that something could be, must be done. That was all in her. She just needed a bigger life than the one she was stuck in to bring it out.

    shrill, unlikeable Donna.

    I don’t see this in her at all, either before or after. I think she was always very likeable. Self-absorbed, frustrated, insecure, yeah, I’d go with all those. As I said above–she just needed a bigger life so she could stop being obsessed with trivialities.

    And I agree, Poly–Donna will be alright. That bigger life she’s searching for is in her now. All she has to do to find it is to look inside. She may never know its source, but then–do any of us?

  • Hank Graham

    Except Davros long predates the Emperor, so perhaps it’s a matter of Lucas stealing from DW…

    What, George Lucas steal from some other pop culture? How likely is that?

  • Weimlady

    If you think about it, Jack Harkness saved reality. He’s the one who found the Doctor’s hand and used it as a Doctor detector, thus returning it to the Doctor.

    Or to take it one step further, credit the Sycorax leader for saving all of reality. He’s the one that cut the hand off in the first place.

    Shame he didn’t live to have his praises sung throughout the galaxies for his noble deed. Damn you, Harriet Jones! (Oh, and RIP also.)

  • Poly in London

    This is from the Fact File at the official Doctor Who website:
    “In the original script, the Doctor gave Rose’s Doctor a small piece of ‘coral’ from the TARDIS so that he could create his own Time/Space machine from it. ” Somehow that makes me feel better.

  • “I went to school with Russell T Davies but I hate Dr Who!” mike.

    then, mike, you don’t belong on this blog — certainly not on this portion of it. as maryann says, this is a *love fest*… no negativity about the Doctor or Doctor Who allowed.

  • MaryAnn

    I deleted that “I went to school with RTD” post — it sounded trollish to me.

  • Katie

    Ummm I have no idea why I’m here…I haven’t seen this season yet but I just CANNOT help myself b/c I keep hearing little snippets of things all over the place and OMGS. That’s it, I’m doing a marathon this weekend.

  • I see another Dave has joined us. I knew this would happen one day, so from now on I’ll be signing in as Proper Dave.
    –Dave

    Hey, who turned out the lights?

    (Sorry, I couldn’t resist.)

    Time Lords pick their own while at the same time the Doctor’s is a secret. What does it mean for the Doctor to have been so named by Davros?
    –Ryan H.

    I’m guessing that it means that the Doctor’s real name is Shiva…

    In a lot of ways, the Doctor really is a hypocrite when convenient. He isn’t a ‘nice’ person. Amazing and wonderful, but not not nice.
    –Ryan H.

    At the risk of sounding pedantic, it’s pretty more accurate to say–in keeping with my Shiva theory–that there is an aspect of the Doctor that is not very nice.

    But then I suspect that there is an aspect of all of us that is not very nice. And that a lot of what distinguishes the best of us from the worst of us is how well we control that not-so-nice part.

    But then I suppose it wasn’t nice of me to say that.

    Which proves my theory…in a way…

  • Les Carr

    It’s not often that you hear Shiva saying “I’m so sorry”. It’s become something of a theme for the Doctor.

  • Tara

    Hi again MaryAnn!
    I’m quite shocked by your reaction to the “duplicate doctor.”
    “A doctor who is able to love Rose to the exclusion of the universe is not the wonderful, wild, fire and ice doctor that we fell in love with.”
    WRONG.
    Two reasons-
    Firstly, WHY does no one seem to understand what Russell (or the 1st doc) gave Rose? He gave what the Doctor was before she knew him. In time Rose will “heal” this Doctor and not only will he have the same memories and experiences as the first one, but he will be completely the same as the first Doctor because of Rose. So eventually, he will be THE EXACT SAME GUY.
    Secondly, as for the exclusion of the universe part, is everyone just forgetting that there is a Torchwood on Rose’s world, completely devoted to aliens and the general universe out there? and also that because the Doctor is a complete duplicate, he isn’t confined by that earth’s present day knowlegde of transportation, and will probably be more than capable of getting off earth. One last thing- in the most recent issue of Doctor Who magazine it says that the first Doctor gave duplicate doc and Rose a chunk of the Tardis. And as we all know Tardis’s are GROWN, so presumably thats what the Doc’s gonna do with that chunk and he and Rose will explore the universe together until they die. Wonderful.
    But um, one thing I really didn’t agree with was Rose kissing Duplo Doc in front of first Doc. That was harsh, girl!

  • MaryAnn

    So eventually, he will be THE EXACT SAME GUY

    No, he won’t. The instant they diverged, they became two separate people, with separate experiences, plus the clone-Doctor has elements of Donna in him. He will never, ever be the same as the Doctor. Never.

  • Tara

    Yes but before they diverged that were the same person. The Doctor said it himself. Same memories, same thoughts, same knowlege, “same everything” “he’s me” The difference from the second they diverged onwards is only memories. The personality is the same. And as for the elements of Donna, thats hardly a bad thing.

  • MaryAnn

    The difference from the second they diverged onwards is only memories.

    No, the difference is *everything that happens after the divergence*! They will live *entirely different lives* from that moment onward, which will make them entirely different people.

    And as for the elements of Donna, thats hardly a bad thing.

    I didn’t say it was! But it’s yet another element that makes the clone-Doctor different.

  • Tara

    The point i’m trying to make is that the Doctor that Rose got is the same as the Doctor until the point up till the divergence. But yes, you’re right, after that they are different people. But Rose is still getting the man she loves, with only a couple of hours worth of memories different.
    I kinda see it like; what the human Doctor did, (chose to be with Rose) is what the real Doctor would have done if it was him that was turned human and the Duplo Doc took his place as the Time Lord (in that scenario) but he can’t, he’s the unlucky one :(

  • MaryAnn

    I don’t think that’s true. I don’t think the true Doctor would be able to stay in one place, not even for Rose. It’s because the clone-Doctor is human that enables him to be able to do so. That’s a huge difference.

  • Jackie

    I think that the problem is that Clone Doctor thinks of himself as the Doctor. He has all of the Doctor’s memories right up to the point of the “regeneration” He knows that he’s a clone and is somewhat disgusted by his half-human body, but sees himself as himself, but with a few changes (such as being able to tell Rose his feelings).

    It’s everybody else who can spot that he’s not the real Doctor, see the differences and the fact that he really is somebody else. Also, Clone Doctor wasn’t the one tortured by Davros when he ended up seeing his friends all holding weapons of mass destruction and ready to use them. That was Real Doctor, who was forced (to his horror) to accept that he had turned all of these people into weapons. Clone Doctor at that same time was creating a weapon of mass destruction to kill all of the daleks…

  • Tara

    The duplicate wouldn’t be able to either. He’s still the Doctor. Where in the programme did it say he’ll be living a normal life from now on? He’ll be living it with Rose, yes, but that doesn’t mean it has to be normal. It said he’ll die, and be more human from now on, but who the Doctor essentially is will not change. Of course he’ll still want to travel, but Rose wouldn’t want him to stay in one place anyway. She’d go with him.

  • Tara

    “Clone Doctor at that same time was creating a weapon of mass destruction to kill all of the daleks…”
    You forget that the original killed all the daleks in the time war aswell. Hence that the duplicate is the same as 9th Doctor when we first met him. And as I said before, Rose will “heal” him as she did the original, and he’ll be back to the Doctor she knows and loves, personality wise anyway. The memories will be the only difference.

  • MaryAnn

    I think the fact that the clone-Doctor doesn’t even protest being stranded on a single planet speaks volumes about his differences compared to the “real” Doctor.

  • Tara

    where in the programme did it say he’d be stranded on a single planet?!

  • Jackie

    Alt-Earth is not that far ahead of our Earth. Solar system-based. Clone Doctor has a human lifespan to create from scratch the technology to get him to the stars again. Less than that if he’s to be young enough to enjoy it. He’s stuck.

  • brie

    I think that what 10.5 did was different than tens actions in the time war, and rose’s as Bad Wolf, because in the time war he did what he did because they were losing. they had lost. the bad wolf as well. But in this case, with Davros as all of them, they had won. Their enemy was, for the time being, helpless and waiting to be dealt with. But then, after winning the battle, 10.5 went ahead and slaughtered all their prisoners of war. and he did it on a split second decision. I have to admit I gasped when they all started blowing up because I just couldn’t imagine Ten doing that so flippantly without either a) giving them a choice, or b) trying to rehabilitate them or something. In the end I truly believe ten would have ended up having to blast them out of the sky. but that wouldn’t have been his first action. look what he did in season three? how hard he was willing to try. Perhaps he could change them. I think Ten would want nothing more than to be the one to “save” the Daleks. Because hes a self-righteous jerk like that.

    and Look at the sontarans, he was willing to DIE in order to give them a choice. The racnoss? the instance brought up most often to show the doctors dark side? Even then he gave them a choice first. I personally think he does that sometimes, even when he knows they wont take it, because it allows him to go all oncoming storm on them without feeling guilty. He feels justified in not holding back.

    so yes, he is a hypocrite, but on the other hand I can see how he was able to justify it in his own mind. 10.5s first option from the beginning was always violence. And on that line of thought, what tore him up, I think, the most about his companions becoming weapons was he found himself standing there in a situation where every single solution would result in death.

    (so sorry about the long post! I’m a bit long winded. also hi *waves* I’m a long time reader. just never posted really.)

  • MaryAnn

    Long comments are fine, as long as they’re relevant.

    where in the programme did it say he’d be stranded on a single planet?!

    Where did he say that he wouldn’t? He’s on a parallel Earth that doesn’t even seem to have invented the jet engine (they’re still using dirigibles). There’s no reason to presume that he will have any opportunity to have a life that even approaches the freedom of the universe that he’s used to. Even if he were to put his intelligence and knowledge to work in the aerospace industry on this alt-Earth, he’s never gonna be the carefree man about spacetime like he was. Not even close.

    What basis is there to assume otherwise?

  • Martin

    And there’s no way he’s going to have access to a TARDIS.

    And I figure that one of the reason the Doctor’s so care-free is because he’s (for all intents) immortal. It doesn’t really matter what trouble he gets into because he can always regenerate, something this new Doctor can’t do. Making him mortal might make this Doctor more cautious.

    Whilst it wouldn’t make good TV, I’d like to see the Doctor faced with his last life.

  • Tara

    http://davidtennant.albumpost.com/album828/aab
    here you go, look at that.
    it was ommitted from the programme but I doubt they’d be allowed to put it in a doctor who magazine if it wasn’t true (the bit about the tardis chunk.) Also, does anyone remember the Doctor saying all he really wanted was a quiet life? And yes it is a alt universe and he’s stuck, but HE’S WITH ROSE. Big reason there for him not protesting too much. Plus, even if he is “stranded” on earth, you forget that Rose works for torchwood and no doubt the Doctor will too, so they’ll never be far from alien type excitement. Poor human Doctor, every1’s against him!

  • MaryAnn

    I doubt they’d be allowed to put it in a doctor who magazine if it wasn’t true (the bit about the tardis chunk.)

    What’s “true” when you’re talking about a universe of fiction like *Doctor Who* that encompasses material beyond the broadcast version? Do we accept as “true” material that appears in the books? Things that the writer says he thinks are true but that never appear anywhere but in teen magazines? For myself, as a fan, if it’s not on the show, it’s not canon.

    Also, does anyone remember the Doctor saying all he really wanted was a quiet life?

    There are lots of ways to interpret this besides it being 100 percent true. People often say one thing when they believe a situation is hypothetical and then do something else when presented with an actual possibility. It’s easy to fantasize about something that you think has no chance of every happening, and also easy to hesitate when the opportunity presents itself.

    Poor human Doctor, every1’s against him!

    Against him? I don’t even know what that means. We’re discussing the dramatic possibilities presented by the clone-Doctor, none of which appear to point to an easy life for him. That’s not “against” him — it sounds a lot like we’re concerned about him!

    It doesn’t really matter what trouble he gets into because he can always regenerate

    He doesn’t have endless regenerations — just 12, and he’s getting close to running out of them. Now, we, the audience, may assume that the writers will find some way around that when they run out, but the character cannot assume that.

  • Martin

    “He doesn’t have endless regenerations — just 12, and he’s getting close to running out of them. Now, we, the audience, may assume that the writers will find some way around that when they run out, but the character cannot assume that.”

    But if you knew that you could survive death, even once, it would alter your perception. If I knew I could regenerate (which raises the question as to how they came about it? How many test subjects where there before they perfected it?) I would be more willing to take risks.

    I would imagine that the Doctor would be wary of how his last regeneration can’t be far away and as flippant as he was during the change from Eccleston to Tennant, any regeneration would be a sad event for him because it’s one less life to live.

  • MaryAnn

    But if you knew that you could survive death, even once, it would alter your perception.

    I’m sure that’s true. But it seems to me that there’s reason to believe that Time Lords don’t see what happens just before a regeneration as “death,” any more than, perhaps, people today might see the greater potential of surviving catastrophic injury than might have been the case a century ago (thanks to advancing medical technology) as “surviving death.” And anyway, there’s no guarantee that the Doctor will always regenerate when faced with a Really Bad Situation: No. 5 clearly thought he was going to die, and only at the last minute speculates “Might regenerate…”

    raises the question as to how they came about it? How many test subjects where there before they perfected it?

    Whoa! Who’s to say the ability is not natural to them?

  • Martin

    “Whoa! Who’s to say the ability is not natural to them?”

    My Who knowledge isn’t as vast as most but I’m pretty sure that Gallifreyians (?) aren’t born Time Lords. They are selected and trained.

  • MaryAnn

    Yes, I have the impression, too, that not all Gallifreyans are Time Lords. But that doesn’t mean that all Gallifreyans don’t have the ability to regenerate, or that it’s not natural. I mean, we simply don’t have any information on this at all, one way or the other… but we also don’t know that Santa Claus bestowed upon Gallifreyans the ability to regenerate, either. Should we assume that’s the case? :->

  • Karen

    I’ve seen in various fan fictions etc. the idea of putting the doctor into a situation where he’d be continually killed, so regenerate through all of his lives very quickly. *shudder*

    I think this is one of the reasons he was so terrified in “Midnight.” What would the extonic radiation do to a timelord? Turn him to dust, too?

  • Martin

    “but we also don’t know that Santa Claus bestowed upon Gallifreyans the ability to regenerate, either. Should we assume that’s the case? :->”

    Assume? That’s my fan-fiction you’re channelling! ;)

    I think it’s legitimate to view it either way.

  • MaryAnn

    I think this is one of the reasons he was so terrified in “Midnight.” What would the extonic radiation do to a timelord? Turn him to dust, too?

    He was terrified for a lot of reasons (and I’ll get to my blogging on this ep ASAP), but I do think he had no reason to expect he’d survive outside the truck on the surface of Midnight. He’s not Superman, after all. :->

  • Weimlady

    Posted by Martin, last week:

    I found it interesting that of all the companions, of all the people that the Doctor has met over the four series, it’s Wilf that’s the one to ask the Doctor if he’s going to be alright. Everyone else swans off with their own lives but it’s lovely old Wilf that actually cares for the Doctor as a ‘person’.

    None of the others know that the Doctor has lost Donna. They “swanned off” thinking he and she were together, tighter than ever now that she was half Time Lady, probably imagining that the Doctor had finally found the companion he would stay with forever. No more mere humans need apply.

    I think they’ve all made it perfectly clear that, if the Doctor needs them, they’re willing to drop everything to go to him and give their lives for him, if needed. They do have to know he needs them, though. They’re all mere humans and no more psychic than the rest of us.

    And I know in my heart that if the Doctor ever invited Jack Harkness to travel with him, he’d be there so fast that Torchwood would be buried in the dust of his leaving. As witness the scene where he left Gwen and Ianto behind while using forbidden technology to run to the Doctor’s side. That boy’s as much in love with the Doctor as I am. If I were Ianto, I’d be miffed.

  • Weimlady

    Rose got what she deserved.

    When the man..erm, Time Lord she allegedly loved was in the throes of regeneration, did she say, “Oh, thank God he has this ability, he won’t die, in fact, he won’t have to suffer anymore the way he’s suffering now, he’ll be all healed and fine, please, please, regenerate and do it quickly because I can’t stand seeing you in such pain? I’ve loved you with two different faces already, what difference does it make what you look like? You’re still you.”

    No, she boo-hooed and wailed, “You CAHN’t!” Better he should die in agony but looking good than risk a new face and body? Wow, that’s true love.

    So, she got the cute guy with the great hair for keeps. And the real doctor learned what a shallow little girl she was, and it showed on his face as he watched them kiss, walked to his TARDIS and left without a backward glance.

  • Tara

    Hi Weimlady, good arguement about the whole Rose thing. As much as I like the Doctor and Rose together, Rose did seem, even to me, really selfish in this episode. It made me sad because if you watch the new series from episode 1, Rose is very likeable and more than a fit companion for the Doctor. Although in Turn Left she was brilliant, and the whole “Do you like my gun?” moment in Stolen Earth was reminiscent of what a great feisty character she was.
    But you’re right, I want to deny it but I can’t! Rose dissapointed me in Journeys End. The whole “you can’t!” bit was ridiculous- i mean, helpful much?
    I hope the next companion will be as good as Donna, although that will be hard.

  • Poly in London

    Continuing the regeneration discussion (and defending poor Rose as well!), I think that the regeneration process, to a great extent, is experienced as a death, both by the Time Lords and certainly by the humans around the Doctor. A body is not irrelevant, separate, disconnected from the soul. Physicality shapes the person, and the body carries physical memories. When the Doctor changes has to leave some of these memories behind, and rebuild himself. He experiences loss. When the Ninth Doctor says to Rose “I would have taken you to so many places”, it is obvious that the change is not cosmetic. He doesn’t say, “Hold on two seconds, I ‘ll change body and then we ‘ll pop in to Barcelona”. The Tenth Doctor says: “all those planets and creatures and horizons! I haven’t seen them yet, not with these eyes”. He has to physically experience things from the beginning.

    And Rose can only experience the regeneration as a death. She has a human frame of reference (where every human has one body for life), and if he changes, she has to get to know him again. If the clone Doctor is a different person from the moment he is born (literally, the moment he is born in – in battle – determines who he is), the Doctor who regenerates is a different person as well.

  • Weimlady

    Quotes from Poly:

    I think that the regeneration process, to a great extent, is experienced as a death, both by the Time Lords and certainly by the humans around the Doctor.

    Ah, but they also have to see it as a rebirth. Think of his joy as he explored his new body. “A mole! I’ve got a mole between my shoulderblades! LOVE the mole!”

    When the Ninth Doctor says to Rose “I would have taken you to so many places”, it is obvious that the change is not cosmetic. He doesn’t say, “Hold on two seconds, I ‘ll change body and then we ‘ll pop in to Barcelona”.

    But that is virtually what he did do. He regenerated, checked out his new teeth, turned to the console and said, “So, where was I? Ah yes, Barcelona!” Pretty nonchalant.

    And Rose can only experience the regeneration as a death. She has a human frame of reference (where every human has one body for life), and if he changes, she has to get to know him again.

    If she still has a human frame of reference after all she’s been through, she’s far more limited than I thought she was. She’s the only one there who has been through this with the Doctor before, and yet Jack is more cool with it than she is.

    And what an adventure it would be to get to know him all over again. Him but not-him. The one she loves but in an entirely new body. What a way to keep a relationship from going stale! Makes you wish human men could do this, n’eh?

    If the clone Doctor is a different person from the moment he is born (literally, the moment he is born in – in battle – determines who he is), the Doctor who regenerates is a different person as well.

    I think we’re treading on shaky ground making any comparisons between a new Doctor, grown from an amputated hand, with the help of cast-off regeneration energy and the touch of a human female, and ordinary Time Lord regeneration. What happens to create 10.2 is entirely unprecedented.

    Here’s what I see happening in the regeneration scene. In crisis, dying, regenerating, the Doctor hears Rose wail, “You CAHN’T” and he thinks of her reaction the last time. He remembers her wanting him to change back, and how much that hurt him. He remembers how she gave up on him until he proved himself against the Sycorax leader. He quite rightly thinks that she might not love him if he changes again. So, in a desperate attempt to survive without regenerating, he throws his regeneration energy to the hand. It works, and Rose is happy, and they hug. But that hug wasn’t the passionate, joyous reunion it might have been. I think that’s because, in a moment of clarity as he denied his true nature for the sake of this woman, he realized exactly what I said in my last post. It fundamentally changed their relationship from there on out, culminating in his leaving her with 10.2.

  • MaryAnn

    And what an adventure it would be to get to know him all over again. Him but not-him. The one she loves but in an entirely new body.

    Ah, ladies, can I totally plug my fanfic here, which features a human woman who loves the Doctor dealing with regeneration?

    I’ve thought about this a lot. :->

    Fanfic here.

    Yes, I am working on the next installment.

  • Matt

    Better he should die in agony but looking good than risk a new face and body? Wow, that’s true love.

    But remember that Rose knows from previous experience (i.e. The Christmas Invasion) just how agonizing regeneration is for the Doctor. It wasn’t a pleasant experience for either of them. And you seriously think that Rose would prefer the Doctor to die rather than to regenerate? I have to say, I personally don’t see a shred of evidence in the scene to suggest this.

  • Weimlady

    No Matt, I don’t seriously think that Rose would prefer the Doctor to die than to regenerate. I was just extrapolating her attitude out to the extreme to make a point.

  • Martin

    “But that is virtually what he did do. He regenerated, checked out his new teeth, turned to the console and said, “So, where was I? Ah yes, Barcelona!” Pretty nonchalant.”

    But as we’ve discussed, the Doctor’s (at least Ten) a guy that uses comedy as a defence mechanism. Something will happen, he’ll pause for a moment then make a witty remark and keep on going.

    “If she still has a human frame of reference after all she’s been through, she’s far more limited than I thought she was. She’s the only one there who has been through this with the Doctor before, and yet Jack is more cool with it than she is.”

    No matter what she had seen by that point, for her, death is still death. I would imagine that by Jack’s time, the idea of a Time Lord and what a Time Lord can do would be well understood (or at least by supposed ‘Time Agent’). Rose has no frame of reference for someone surviving death so her reaction is legit.

  • Weimlady

    Rose has no frame of reference for someone surviving death so her reaction is legit.

    Excuse me? She’s seen it happen. She has a better frame of reference for it than anyone else in the new series.

    You are Rose’s champion, I see. :-) I’ll be kinder to her in deference to you. Actually, I quite like Rose. If the writers had had her say something along the lines of “Oh, no, not again!” or “Not now!” it wouldn’t have changed my perception of her. But that’s not what they had her say. And based on what did come out of her mouth, my brain went where it went!

  • Karen

    There’s no doubt that a regeneration can make nearly a new man. 9 said it, and in the beginning, 10 had no idea what kind of man he would be. He lucked out being gorgeous and wonderful. Can you see Rose loving 7 (Sylvester McCoy)?

    (Although the Master chose a young body, so maybe…)

    There was an excellent chance, from Rose’s point of view, that 11 would have been too much change for her, or someone she could never love.

  • Jackie

    There’s love and there’s love. She loved travelling with 9 and got to love his personality, but wasn’t necessarily physically attracted to him, but when he turned into 10, she at first felt that 9 had died, even betrayed her by turning into somebody else. She then got even closer to 10. She fancied him physically as well as loving the person. Firstly, having just got back to him, she didn’t want to go through that loss again and be back to feeling just friendship. Also, when he fully regenerates, he tends to be incapacitated for a while. The Earth was being attacked by massed Daleks. Doctor spending the next 24 hours in a coma on the Tardis floor was not a good outcome.

  • Martin

    “Excuse me? She’s seen it happen. She has a better frame of reference for it than anyone else in the new series.”

    Which regeneration are we talking about? The first time she saw the Doctor regenerate she had little idea that he could do that.

    As for the second one, yeah, she was definitely prepared.

    I think I’ve confused myself, thought we were talking about the first regeneration.

  • Weimlady

    So, do you suppose, back on Gallifrey, wedding vows read “till death do us part” or “till regeneration do us part?”

  • Jackie

    I’ve wondered about the effect on Gallifreyan society of regeneration too. A lost opportunity in The Five Doctors to explore what it might really be like for Grandfather and Granddaughter to be of a similar apparent age (and attractivenes?).

    Timelords are probably supposed to see past the regeneration to the “real person” within, but in a relationship those insignificant differences can add up to divorce. Maybe both partners in a marriage are allowed a period of reflection after regeneration to ask for a no-fault divorce? (“Not the same man that I married” would have real resonance here). Of course,if a sex-change was involved, it might be more fraught. (Hm, Master = vengefull ex-wife angry at rejection comes to mind as a possibility).

  • Weimlady

    Good answer, Jackie. Thank you.

  • Weimlady

    Can you see Rose loving 7 (Sylvester McCoy)?

    Yeah. I’d have more trouble seeing her loving Colin Baker’s doc. I even have trouble with that.

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