Quantcast
subscriber help

artisanal film reviews | by maryann johanson

Miss March (review)

Virgin/Whore: The Movie

If you wanted to explain to a mentally challenged hamster about the virgin/whore dichotomy — that is, the feminist theory that mainstream American culture acknowledges only two states for women: either as a completely sexually untouched and preferrably ignorant saint, or a ruined, shameful, and worthless slut — you could do worse than to show it Miss March. You might have to strap the little mite down, however, attach electrodes to its tiny damaged brain, and download the movie directly into its cerebellum, because even this poor creature might be too sophisticated to get anything remotely like entertainment out of this stomach-churning flick.
As an example of Hollywood’s utter disdain for women, particularly in movies aimed at young men, Miss March hits a new low, punishing women with any apparent sexual knowledge and experience with insults, injury, and even death… and the more they make themselves available to men, the more harshly they are punished. One woman who merely indicates that she would like to spend some time with one male character then is forced by the film to unwittingly drink a glass of dog urine (and she enjoys it, of course, because that’s the kind of thing stinkin’ filthy whores do). But she gets off relatively easy: another woman gets stabbed in the face with a fork by the man she is fellating, and another — perhaps the most sexually aggressive woman the film offers — is sucked out a bus window, presumably to her death, while she in the process of offering herself to a man.

This, you see, is funny, as far as Miss March is concerned. How not? Its overarching joke is that Eugene (Zach Cregger), who has been in a coma for four years, suddenly awakens and discovers that his high school girlfriend, Cindi (Raquel Alessi), is now a Playboy bunny. This is funny because she was once a proper virgin, when she and Eugene were cheerleaders for teen abstinence, though they were going to have sex for the first time on prom night, until Eugene got conked on the head before they could do the deed. The joke is on Eugene: his virgin — the one who was going to be his alone — is now a whore. He has been unmanned. It’s perfectly clear the movie does not acknowledge Eugene as a man, because he is constantly disparaged and belittled, most notably when he is feminized by being forced to wear not only a T-shirt with an illustration of a woman’s breasts on it but also a girlie pink hoodie. It’s right and proper for a woman to be a virgin, you see, but not a man.

So, in the world of Miss March — and presumably in the worlds of many of the young men at whom this movie is aimed — women are worthless, interchangeable, and literally disposable. The men aren’t much better, of couse, but at least the world caters to their worthlessness. For at the behest of Eugene’s friend Tucker (Trevor Moore), the two guys — two of the most unappealing morons ever to appear onscreen — hit the road to the Playboy Mansion so Eugene can reconnect with Cindi, even though she’s now a whore. That a place like the Playboy Mansion, a sort of Disney World for horny men, where all the rides and attractions are women, even exists is a clear endorsement of Miss March’s mindset. And yet that’s not enough: Hugh Hefner himself must grace this endeavor by appearing in the role of “The Shriveled-Up Prune of a Misogynist,” who imparts such manly wisdom as “There’s a bunny deep down inside every women.” Even ugly-ass bitches. It’s true!

To be fair, on the road the Playboy Mansion, the movie does admit that there are other options open to women beside “virgin” or “whore.” A gal may also choose to be a crazy bitch, like Tucker’s “girlfriend” who doesn’t object to being insulted as a form of foreplay but, jesus, goes off the deep end when he stabs her in the face while she’s sucking him off, as if stabbing her in the face with a fork was wrong of him to do. A gal may also chose to be a hot lesbian, like the pair of Russian supermodels who pick up the hitchhiking lads so that the boys can drive, leaving the girls to get freaky in the backseat. (It’s okay to be a lesbian, you know, as long as one’s primary reason for existence is catering to the sexual pleasure of men.)

I barely even know where to begin with the subplot about Tucker’s friend, a rapper named Horsedick.MPEG (Craig Robinson: Zack and Miri Make a Porno, Pineapple Express), and his hit song “I’ma Fucka White Bitch.” (I’m guessing on the spelling variants here.) Except it appears designed, perhaps even moreso than the entire rest of the movie, to rile up anyone with even a hint of the feminist about them, perhaps so that Cregger and Moore — who also wrote and directed this atrocity — may dismiss any objections to their film by decrying feminists’ supposed lack of a sense of humor.

Nothing about Miss March is funny, and it’s some of the most brutal misogyny a mainstream comedy has tried to bandy about recently. Perhaps the only thing that might mitigate its viciousness is its childishnes. For when the movie isn’t finding “humor” in bodily injury and human feces, its primary theme appears to be: “Sex is about a man putting his pee-pee where?! Inside a disgusting skank? Gross!”

Perhaps all that’s needed by way of education is for the mental four-year-olds responsible for this nightmare to grow up and meet some actual, flesh-and-blood human women.


MPAA: rated R for strong crude and sexual content, nudity, pervasive language and some drug use

viewed at a semipublic screening with an audience of critics and ordinary moviegoers

official site | IMDb | trailer
more reviews: Movie Review Query Engine
  • Paul

    I’m taking bets now that within a year an even dumber, more sexist movie will have been made. It might seem impossible, but the same capitalist dynamic that encourages bigger and bigger explosions in action movies and more torture in movies like “Last House on the Left” will insist upon immature sexism, otherwise people become adjusted to it and it loses its shock value.

  • Jason

    And yet nothing in this movie will be quite as offensive to the American public as Dr. Manhattan’s blue penis.

    (It’s okay to be a lesbian, you know, as long as one’s primary reason for existence is catering to the sexual pleasure of men.)

    Which reminds me of a recent promo for Desperate Housewives that hypes an upcoming episode to the tune of Katy Perry’s “I Kissed A Girl.” There are a few gay male characters hidden on network television, but the only characters we’re allowed to watch question their sexuality are almost invariably women. Really hot women who come to the conclusion that, no, they’re not really gay (yecch!), they just like to kiss girls during sweeps.

    Here’s what I get from the Miss March TV spots:
    80-year-old poon hounds: cool.
    22-year-old virgins: not cool, and/or gay.

  • Brianne

    Excellent review. Very refreshing to read a misogynist mess like this film taken down by a feminist critique.

  • Accounting Ninja

    (It’s okay to be a lesbian, you know, as long as one’s primary reason for existence is catering to the sexual pleasure of men.)

    I had an argument recently with an internet troglodyte who vehemently bashed “fags” (ie, men) but sung the praises of lesbians. Aside from his disgusting gay bashing, he didn’t “get” why his love of lesbians was actually deeply sexist. I tore into him for that white, male sense of entitlement that you find so often in America, for assuming that all women merely exist to please your dick, and anything that doesn’t please the Great White Dick (gay men or “fat chicks”) need to be stricken from the Earth and should be ashamed for existing and offending their senses.

    I’ve seen some sexist trailers before, but this one actually gave me a visceral reaction; a sick, nervous feeling. And it was this scene in the trailer: the beautiful black girl propositions the white boy, then promptly gets sucked out a door and onto the highway. Cue her screams and the sounds of car horns blaring.

    THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE FUNNY?? Look, slapstick is slapstick, and that’s fine, but this went too far, because it’s heavily implied that she is dead. That’s really disturbing and so sexist that I’m surprised this got greenlighted.

    And, I’m a geek girl who loves stuff like South Park and adult swim, so I have a pretty high threshold for sexist bullshit.

  • JoshB

    @Accounting Ninja:

    Dude’s a moron to be sure, nevertheless I’m curious.

    I tore into him for that white, male sense of entitlement

    Did he say he was white?

    he didn’t “get” why his love of lesbians was actually deeply sexist

    I don’t get it either. Explain?

  • koipond

    I don’t get it either. Explain?

    Basically the fact that you are interested in two people who really want nothing to do with your gender is objectification. They aren’t people, they’re “lesbians” who are okay because they’ll help get you off.

    By you I’m explicitly referencing the “White Male Dude” and the privilege that a “White Male Dude” has when you reside in a patriarchal hetero-normative society.

  • Accounting Ninja

    JoshB: Yes, unfortunately, in some previous threads he has said “white power” to rile up another poster, who is black (he actually ended up defending it as “just a joke” and how he really isn’t racist). He’s a real idiot, this one. And double unfortunately, he isn’t just a troll.

    koipond is right. But it was exacerbated by this guy’s extreme distaste for gay male sex and subsequent gay bashing, saying that “f*gs are wrong and filthy”. But if you think homosexuality is wrong, you need to think it’s wrong on all levels, and not be a damned hypocrite just because lesbians are “hot”. This attitude is so common.
    That DOESN’T mean you need to find gay male sex appealing. Obviously, everyone has their own tastes and preferences, and a straight man would logically find something involving the gender to which he is attracted more appealing. But it crosses the line when a guy hatefully bashes gay males. My own husband will never get turned on by two guys, but nor would he call them names and demand that they have no right to be.

    As for why it’s sexist: Women’s sexuality is all too often seen merely as a tool for male sexuality. Lesbians have absolutely nothing to do with straight males. The “porn lesbians” are a straight male fantasy and have little to do with what lesbianism is about. Women’s sexuality is appropriated to service men. To be a lesbian who is “tolerated” under patriarchal attitudes is an extreme form of objectification and it is NOT flattering.
    I am not a lesbian, but even straight womens’ sexuality in this culture is seen as an extension of males’. That’s where this whole virgin/whore thing comes into play: defining our sexuality in terms that are “acceptable” to males’ tastes and thoughts of what women “should be”.

    Am I making any sense? It’s kind of “ramble-y” but I hope I’m making sense.

  • JoshB

    I like lesbianism. I don’t remotely think lesbians owe me anything, nor do I think they need my approval. I also have no idea why I like lesbians. It doesn’t make much sense, but there it is, and it’s not as though I can decide otherwise.

    I don’t want to bore you with too much info about myself, but I feel this is pertinent… I grew up in a Catholic family that has varying degrees of disapproval of homosexuality. Somewhere around puberty I discovered that I find lesbianism erotic. For a while I shared this guy’s attitude in loving lesbianism while frowning on gay men. Then it occurred that this was textbook hypocrisy, and I had to reevaluate some things.

    Therefore, my sexist interest put me on the road to not being an illogical bigot. Shrug.

  • Paul

    Actually, I think it makes perfect sense for straight men to like lesbians. It could be for a sexist reason, such as the male fantasy of being in bed with two women at once. That would make the girls bi-sexual, but in that case the pleasure is at least spread around.

    Or it could be because many lesbians are tomboys, and guys often enjoy the company of tomboys. My best two g/fs were tomboys, but obviously not lesbians.

    Or maybe it’s just fun to buy a lesbian a couple of beers and listen to her complain about her ex-girlfriends. I highly recommend the experience.

    Unfortunately none of this has anything to do with the movie in question. If it did, it might have been a good movie.

  • Patrick

    I might be out of line for saying this: but I’ve observed the Madonna/Whore thing is unfortunately used as much by women (some even describing themselves as feminists). It’s sort of like the modern Victim/Skank dichotomy used for women use their bodies sexually for profit. There’s no in-between.

    Person 1: “She’s stripping. She’s obviously the victim of some oppressive misogynist!”

    Person 2: “Well, have you actually TALKED to her? Asked her why she does what she does?”

    Person 1: “Why? That skank doesn’t know any better anyway.”

    And while I want to side step that particular subject, I want to get to the point that sex and politics is really thorny ground, because sex requires great care and deep, compassionate, understanding thought and that’s something that politics is devoid of.

    There’s no middle ground in our society (country or world apparently) for any kind of *healthy* and *consensual* sexual exploration or experimentation. For chrissakes, we’re debating crap carried over from the Bronze age about whether we should masturbate!

    It makes me sick that we live in a country that produces trash like “Miss March” while a terrific writer/director like John Cameron Mitchell is only known in indie circles because of his sexually mature subject matter.

    We could learn a lot from Europe…

  • MaryAnn

    I might be out of line for saying this: but I’ve observed the Madonna/Whore thing is unfortunately used as much by women (some even describing themselves as feminists).

    Yup, you’re right. Which just underscores how pernicious the concept is (as many patriarchal concepts are), that it infects even those who are oppressed by it, and enrolls many of its victims in perpetuating it.

  • Accounting Ninja

    Just want to make it clear: liking lesbians in and of itself is not sexist. It’s when you denigrate gay men, but “accept” gay women, because they get you off, but then say that homosexuality itself is wrong and evil (except hot women, because they’ve earned the right to exist. Otherwise, what would you fap to?)
    Josh, you realized the hypocrisy. Sadly, many don’t.

  • Blank Frank

    My theory on why those kinds of guys find “lesbians” (note the quotes) to be appealing: Double the chick, none of the dick.

  • helen

    Thank you for writing this review. It’s people who can recognize this awful misogynist bullshit that make the world a place worth living in for women.

  • Guy

    Very well spoken review. As a guy, I’m insulted by this misogonistic trash.

  • Ods

    We could learn a lot from Europe…

    Ohgod, please don’t. I promise you, we are just as sexist and disgusting over here. We just make women-hating shit with smaller budgets.

  • MrsBee

    I can’t really hate on guys watching lesbian porn, since I watch gay porn (two men) myself. It’s not that I hate lesbians and love gay guys, it’s more that girls don’t turn me on, and men do, so when I am looking to be aroused, I prefer to see as much man and as little woman as possible. Plus watching guys make out is really, really hot.
    Anyway, this movie looks really offensive and stupid. No one over the age of 15 will be interested in it anyway (hopefully). I’m just amazed that stuff like this gets made SO MUCH with so little backlash. And there are no equivalent movies aimed at women, where men are paraded around as sexual objects to either be dismissed or objectified. I can’t think of a single one.

  • nic

    God I can’t tell you how much I hate that “lesbians are hot” crap from the straight white male (“frat boy”) crowd. Although similar things have happened more than once, this one time when I was out in public with my girlfriend, holding hands, (it was obvious we were “together”)…and we were approached by two (straight white) males who preceded to come on to us by saying stuff like “wow! so hot”, “I love ‘lesbians'”, “ooooh yeah!”, “lemme see you kiss”, “c’mon, lets go get a drink” -comments like that…when we responded with a noticeably pissed off “we’re LESBIANS, we’re not interested, leave us alone”…they immediately responded with a homophobic/misogynistic rant…”stupid sluts” “dyke-a$$ f@gs”, “f-ing carpet muncher ho-bags” etc.” start spitting at us, making obscene gestures, and so on.

    These privileged “boys” (I refuse to call them men, even though they were technically adult age) apparently love seeing two women together so long as said “lesbians” are ready and willing to service their almighty penis(ego). But god forbid you are an actual lesbian that wants nothing to do, sexually/romantically, with a straight male, then you are immediately met with an onslaught of homophobic and sexist comments by these “lesbians (that suck d-ck) are hot” types.

    Er, I’m pretty sure I know where these penis-brained privileged white man-children get the absurd notion that lesbians are just bending over backwards for the chance to suck their weewees…especially their idea that what lesbians really need is just a little “deep d-cking”…However, I’m not going to mention this source because I don’t want to get into a big argument over it…as there always seems to be at least one of these offended “man-children” rushing to defend these bone-headed ideas that they seem to get from their “learning material”. Not going there.

    But, let me say one other thing because there’s always someone who inevitably misunderstands and gets all offended on me…when I say “privileged man-child” or “penis-brained white frat boy”…I am not talking about ALL men. Got it? So, don’t start whining “How dare you speak ill about men! I’m a man and I don’t approach random lesbians in public asking for sex”. Yeah, I know that, So I shouldn’t have to explain. I think most of us are smart enough to figure out the type of person I’m referring to when I say “white privileged frat boy man-child”.

    And, by the way, the description of this movie made me want to barf. Do these idiots truly believe that their fart, d-ck, and boob jokes are somehow original and funny? And is Hollywood really THAT desperate for ideas-that they end up producing this crap? My cat could come up with a thousand better ideas than this one. And who are the people that are stupid enough to pay $10 to go see this? Well, maybe the “lesbians (that will suck my d-ck) are hot!” crowd would go see this. But, I can’t imagine that there’s anybody else! Unless…maybe this is just an experiment by Hollywood to estimate the number of sexist idiots in this country.

  • Matze

    Ods: We especially make viewer-hating shit with smaller budgets.

    I went to a sneak-preview which was screened as “original with subtitles”, and I was happy, thinking “this won’t be a film funded by German film funding! Yay!”

    As I found out the hard way, the Irish have film funding, too …

    Okay, this was off-topic, now on-topic: This movie sounds terribly awful and sexually immature and woman-hating and like really crappy shit because of these reasons. I hope and guess it will die a quick and painful death, ans that the guys who did this won’t ever get to work again.

  • Christina

    The “lesbians are hawt” thing is really actually pretty easy to understand.

    First, all women are assumed to be available for sex (with a man) until proven otherwise and sometimes even after proven otherwise.

    Second, all womens’ sexuality is for the titillation, enjoyment and ultimately, use of men. (and it is for these first two underlying assumptions that it is sexist along with the subsequent though processes when confronted with evidence that belies these assumptions)

    Therefore, if two women are being sexual *with each other* it is a show for men’s entertainment, of course. The women will get each other all hot and bothered and he will reap the “benefit” (orgasm/sex without “all that work”, i.e. foreplay or anything but PiV sex for the 30 sec it takes to reach orgasm for him.)

    However, if the women involved make it clear that their enjoyment of each other has nothing whatsoever to do with titillating men, they have directly challenged the idea that that is what women are FOR and that’s what we exist to do. If that’s what we’re FOR and what we exist to do, and we reject these particular men–they take it as a personal affront and rejection. It simply cannot be that women exist who do not yearn for the penis so it must be a rejection of their penises specifically and so are deserving of retaliatory scorn and ridicule and hatred. And if we do exist and are not interested in any penises, we are unnatural and deserving of scorn and ridicule and hatred. Either way, lesbians are going to be the target of scorn, ridicule and hatred simply for existing and not being interested in any phallus.

  • JoshB

    I can’t really hate on guys watching lesbian porn, since I watch gay porn (two men) myself.

    I’ve always wondered how widespread this is. I knew from reading Anne Rice that there was some level of female fascination with gay men. On the other hand, our culture doesn’t really acknowledge this (even as us guys’ fascination with lesbians is taken for granted), so it’s tough to get a sense of it.

  • Paul

    Wasn’t there an entire TV show about a straight woman who could only maintain friendships with a couple of gay men? Will and Grace, that’s it.

    Yes, the privileged boy-man problem. I’m not surprised that they take rejection so badly. Getting everything one wants in life is bound to make a person spoiled, and the worse the person is, the more defensive they have to be to maintain their self image, so the more sensitive to rejection and hostile about it they get. Then they grow up to be law and order Republicans who embezzle money, start wars, and/or cheat on their wives.

    I much prefer what the “I’m so hot I’m spoiled” women do when they don’t get what they want: they pretend the source of disillusionment doesn’t exist. Total denial. It’s a lot safer for everyone involved.

  • madinscriber

    I’ve come across the straight-woman-loves-gay-male-sex thing before – for the same reason: if one d-ck is good, two is better! It’ll take another Kinsey-type to ever find out how common this is, since women – apropos the above movie / conversation – are assumed to have no autonomous sexuality; therefore their desires are irrelevant / assumed to be nonexistent.

    Like AccountingNinja, I do have a high threshold for sexist humor; this – well, it isn’t funny. Harold and Kumar – funny s4it. Knocked Up – dumb, but funny; I was in stiches during the birthing scene. What’s funny about an overtly sexual chick randomly getting sucked out a window and dying? What on earth is funny about stabbing your girlfriend in the face with a fork during sex?

    I wish these guys would realize that their lives – their sex lives, even – would improve with a different attitude.

  • amanohyo

    madinscriber, according to my yaoi-loving sources (well, source), the reasons that slash appeals to women are often a bit more complex than “2 dicks are better than 1.” One of the main factors is that some women find it sexy to see certain characters placed in emotionally and physically vulnerable positions, especially since genuine male vulnerability is fairly taboo in any patriarchy. The relatively large number of slash fanfics written by women and the almost complete absence of femslash fanfics written by men is also evidence that the driving forces beind the two phenomena are not symmetrical.

  • madinscriber

    amanohyo – that definitely rounds out the picture, thank you!

  • feminist interloper

    amanohyo and madinscriber — I’d also add to that the fact that a lot of *mainstream* porn shows some pretty serious feminine vulnerability (I’m not even talking bdsm stuff — just plain ole regular pr0n is in many ways about domination, of which vulnerability is an integral part — can’t dominate someone who isn’t vulnerable). So although it’s likely the case that *both* halves in the hetero department enjoy seeing the other being (or being made) vulnerable, men are the only ones who can generally find their particular appetites satisfied by mainstream stuff. Women have to do a bit more searching.

    Of course, that doesn’t at all undercut your suggestion that the forces that drive women to gay male porn are different from those that drive men to lesbian porn. Just thought I’d throw in a little more food for thought.

  • Jade Fox

    I just saw the trailer for this and yeah…I’m officially creeped out. Good taste truly is dead.

    As for reasons why women might like seeing two men together, as someone who has written slash fiction, I can’t speak for everyone in the slash community really. Mainly because there’s so many genres and fandoms. It might be one of the Internet’s largest communities that is still mostly underground, meaning that mainstream media has never talked about it. That I know of anyway.

    I did notice however that when the issue of gay marriage came up on an LJ post, that every person who responded was completely for it. And I think that might be one of the primary differences in straight men liking two women together and women liking two gay men together. A lot of slash fiction don’t end with the guys coming to the conclusion that “Well I’m not really gay, I was just experimenting” and end up with women instead. Rather so many of the stories end with the two guys realizing that they ARE gay and hooking up with the guy they want to be with.

    In other words, the women I’ve encountered on slash communities don’t come off as being the least bit homophobic in the way a straight dude could find lesbians hot, but are grossed out by gay men.

    I hope that helps.

  • Ryan

    It makes me sad that a demographic actually exists for this movie.

    It makes me happy I am not part of the demographic.

  • Mike

    This review is exactly the kind of thing that makes the feminist movement look stupid. I don’t know if that was intentional, but if not then… oh dear. You see, the problem with taking offense to a stupid movie is that in order to complain properly, you have to admit that you willingly saw it.
    The movie had a trailer, did it not? Everyone I saw that a with agreed that the movie looked offensive. Not, however, offensively sexist; this movie is merely offensively stupid. As is the idea of watching something you know you won’t enjoy simply so that you can complain about it later. I stumbled on this brilliant pile of trash, so anyone who would call me a hypocrite for posting this can kindly, and in the most gentle way possible, suck it.

  • MaryAnn

    Mike, could you explain why you think a professional film critic should simply avoid movies s/he believes s/he won’t like?

    Could you explain why you think a professional watcher of pop culture whose mission is to put pop culture into a larger context would avoid a movie that appears — from the very trailer you mention — to be the perfect explication of an issue of great import to gender relations, and how the genders are depicted on the whole in pop culture?

    Could you explain how you think this review “makes the feminist movement look stupid”?

    I’m most curious to hear your answers to these questions.

  • Accounting Ninja

    Ah, Mike: Proud member of the Just Ignore Sexism, You Stupid Feminist School of Trollery.

    ‘Cause, y’know, the best way to call attention to misogyny is to just shut the hell up already. It’s always a guy who says stuff like this, isn’t it?? Veeerrry interestingk. >:)

  • JoshB

    Ah, Mike: Proud member of the Just Ignore Sexism, You Stupid Feminist School of Trollery.

    You were able to parse that from the non sequiturs and general incoherence of his post?

    I mean, where did the invitation to kind, gentle fellatio come from?

  • MaryAnn

    Oh, JoshB: the invitation to fellatio comes from the belief that all a hairy man-hating lesbian feminist needs is a good dicking to set her straight. No pun intended.

  • Pedro

    fact A: i’m about to turn 24 years old.

    fact B: i’m a virgin. not by choice, i’m just too nerdy for women to even care (even girls who are uglier than me have turned me down).

    and guess what? it DOES seem to be wrong for a man to be a virgin. when i confess that to women, they either laugh at me or act all incredulous, like “whaaaaat?! you’re bullshitting, no way!” either way, they lose what little interest they had to begin with.

    so yeah, maybe this movie isn’t that far off the point…

  • amanohyo

    *awkward silence*
    *crickets start chirping*

    Just kidding Pedro… I don’t want this to turn into a late night call-in show, but I too was in your, uh, situation for a similar length of time (difficult to believe, I know). Plus I’m terminally shy and nerdy and unattractive and my fashion sense is questionable, so I’ve got you beat. However, I’ve somehow managed to be happily married for six years now.

    Obviously, I can’t guarantee this’ll work for everyone, but my luck turned around after I stopped feeling sorry for myself and just pursued my interests and took better care of myself. I started exercising regularly, I read and wrote, I hiked, I learned how to cook, I took swimming classes, I drew, I concentrated more on my education and career goals, and I eventually had a lot of opportunities to talk to people who had similar interests. Even though I’m shy, I took advantage of those opportunities, and I finally got lucky… so to speak.

    And perhaps most importantly I realized that every woman on the planet regardless of her physical appearance can be beautiful and sexy or ugly and unappealing depending on the context. The most important thing for a long term relationship is not whether you can have nonstop orgies of passion every night (although they can be nice from time to time… so I hear) it’s simply whether or not you enjoy spending time and communicating with the other person. If you do, and they feel the same way about you, go for it.

    Don’t even pause to figure out whether they’re uglier than you or out of your league, or whatever. If they seem like someone you could get along with, talk to them. If they’re cruel enough to make fun of you for being a virgin (and this probably shouldn’t really come up until you get to know someone pretty well), then you’re better off with someone else.

  • Pedro, may I introduce you to the concept of the Nice Guy ™:

    “Nice Guys™”: The “™” marks the difference between men who are genuinely nice people and men with entitlement issues who wail “but I’m a nice guy!”. There are two types, which often overlap in one individual:

    1. a guy who believes that the simple act of being decent means that the universe owes him a girlfriend.[defn from Mickle][more from Jeff Fecke at Shakesville]
    2. men who are looking to date a woman with the appearance of a supermodel, and yet they continually whine about how “women don’t like nice guys – they only want good-looking assholes” [source] [more at the NiceGuy archive at Heartless Bitches International]
    http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/ng.shtml

  • Pedro

    @Christina: i’m a little bit of both, except by this point i’ve given up on the supermodels. i’d settle for a nice girl(TM).

    nice girl (TM): girl who takes a guy at face value rather than by the brands he purchases/car he drives/Daddy’s day-job/dick size.

    problem is, they’re mostly either taken, or they regard me as their cuddly baby brother. kind of a Forrest Gump situation, except, you know, i’m actually smarter than average rather than dumber.

    @amanohyo: i am learning to cook and drive. i do write, proficuously, and i also on occasion compose music. i do read, although not as much as before. i don’t exercise or swim because i can’t find the time, although i did take swimming lessons as a pre-teen and teenager.

    point is, it’s not taking me anywhere. sure, girls take a passing interest on me actually writing or playing the bass. but ultimately, they want the guys who party all night, get loaded and fuck them bare – which is what i DON’T do.

    i’m also painfully shy, and nerdy, and most of my clothes are from three years ago. i don’t renew my wardrobe every year, and i certainly don’t trash my clothes at the end of the saison. my haircut is generic, and so are my looks (i’m not ugly, just unnatractive). i do shave regularly, and bathe religiously every day. i wash my hands and my glasses.

    when i start driving, i’ll drive a broken-down old car, not a Mercedes, although i do plan on getting one later on. i hate clubbing, i wear band t-shirts, i love Kevin Smith and i still get nostalgic when i hear the TMNT or Tiny Toons theme songs. bottom line: yeah, i’m an unabashed nerd. i’ve made my peace with that fact. that’s a step, i reckon, isn’t it?

    oh yeah, and forget money: i’m an unemployed cub journalist and i’ve spent the last six months teaching a brat pack at a local elementary school.

    so do you have any more advice for me, o brother? i’d be glad to hear it.

    oh yeah, PS: i don’t believe in relationships.

  • Pedro

    oh yeah, i’m taking a masters’ degree too, and i’ve met interesting (mostly older) people. and i’m deshying considerably. heck, one of my classmates is a television presenter/socialite, and i was the first in class to get her phone number! i just asked her for it! and guess what, I FRIGGIN’ GOT IT!!!!!!!! it boggles my mind, really…

    still, back when i was 19 and getting desperate, i asked my best friend to take my cherry. guess what, she said no. we lost touch since.

    oh, and this happened twice, with both my best girl friends, but in entirely separate occasions. i also botched an opportunity to sleep with TWO GIRLS AT ONCE because i was drop-dead drunk (figures that the first time i ever got drunk would also be the only time i was presented with such a chance. story of my life…)

  • Pedro

    then again, i asked those girls to kiss one another…but it was their fault, because

    a – they SAID THEY WOULD and then bailed when i actually said “do it then”.

    b – they’d been coming on to me all night. as a unit, not each by herself.

  • problem is, they’re mostly either taken, or they regard me as their cuddly baby brother. kind of a Forrest Gump situation, except, you know, i’m actually smarter than average rather than dumber.

    oh yeah, PS: i don’t believe in relationships.

    So, let me get this straight. You want a woman to accept you as you are (an unemployed journalist/elementary school teacher nerdy guy who dresses like and has the hobbies of a teenager, full of self-pity and frustrated entitlement)but you don’t “believe” in relationships so basically what YOU want is a f*ckbuddy. uh-huh. Can’t understand why you aren’t covered in naked cheerleaders with what you’re offering right there. (Truthfully? This is what you are offering. Friends with detriments.)

    Oh, and P.S. Stop looking for girls. Many girls do go for guys that are assholes–they’re working out their daddy issues. Once they get over that and become women, they aren’t into assholes anymore and so have outgrown it. Then, they begin looking for men–not jerky boys. Be ready for the switch.

    The universe doesn’t owe you a girlfriend. Sex, and access to it, is not an entitlement. You are not OWED a blow job by anyone ever. Say that to yourself in the mirror 3 times a day. In six months, perhaps you’ll do the things that interest you because they interest you and not for ulterior motives.

    It all boils down to a simple equation. If you want people to be interested in you, be interesting. Self-pity and resentment because the sex class (women) isn’t giving you what you are entitled to have due to having been born with that penis is NOT, I repeat NOT, interesting. It’s banal and ubiquitous.

  • Oh yeah, PS: i don’t believe in relationships.

    Don’t knock ’em till you tried ’em.

  • Pedro

    hey you know what irks me?! how everyone has that one “wild friend” who won’t mind being a fuckbuddy – and i don’t. and they don’t ever give me their numbers!

    i don’t think i dress like a teenager. on weekends, yeah, but for work i go for shirts/polos and shoes. then on concert day i get my Ramones tshirt out!

    as for hobbies: cooking’s great! it’s really, really gratifying! it’s great for someone with low self-confidence to actually see things coming to life through his making! writing is great, too, and i don’t care if it does get me girls. same with playing bass – it just fulfills me! other things though, i do for girls. i know guys who joined salsa classes because “that’s where the booty is”. i have never done that. the closest i’ve come is joining a gym…

    and i think if some people can have a wife + two lovers, then i AM entitled to at least one blowjob. law of averages.

  • Pedro

    And i don’t think that comic strip covers it at all. i’d NEVER go to all that work for ONE fuck with ONE chick.

    which is why i DON’T believe in relationships. too much work only to break up in the end.

    friends are friends, and fuckbuddies are fuckbuddies. i could have dated my best high school girl friend, but i didn’t. it would ruin our “thing”. she was kinda like a guy to me, i opened up to her without any problems. only in desperation did i ask her to do me. before, i had always refuted that possibility, and so had she.

  • Pedro

    oh, and please clarify the “daddy issues” they’re working out, and how they relate to some 25-year-olds i know still acting like 15-year-olds.

    thank you.

  • amanohyo

    Ummm… did you just say that you asked your high school friend to “do you” in desperation? I’m sure that made her feel fantastic. I can’t imagine why she would possibly refuse. I think I misunderstood your desire; I thought you were looking for someone to fall in love with. It sounds like you actually don’t believe in love or relationships and you just want to get laid real bad, i.e., you’re looking for a fuckdoll or a prostitute that gives freebies.

    I’m pretty old-fashioned, so I won’t be much help in that search, but according to television and movies, which never lie, if you go to enough parties where alcohol is served, eventually you’ll be blessed with a, uh, magical evening. If you’re extra lucky, you might actually remember it later too and avoid contracting or spreading a horrible disease and/or fathering some unwanted offspring.

    My only additional advice is that people can smell desperation, anger, selfishness, and self-pity from miles away. You also have the classic, “why do those guys get all the luck?” passive-aggressive sense of entitlement going on. As ChristinaM33 pointed out, that’s not really an alluring combo to offer a potential fuckbuddy, even a drunken one.

  • And i don’t think that comic strip covers it at all. i’d NEVER go to all that work for ONE fuck with ONE chick.

    ROTFL So says the guy pissing and moaning about being a virgin. ‘Mkay.

    We aren’t ‘chicks’, btw. We’re people. Thanks. Or, alternately, I can use a different chicken reference for men…

    please clarify the “daddy issues” they’re working out, and how they relate to some 25-year-olds i know still acting like 15-year-olds.

    Namely, guys who treat them like property/shit, who bully and dictate and generally treat them in a sub-human manner.

    What you don’t get is that the assholes aren’t assholes with her, they’re only assholes with everybody else, but with her, he’s a charmer. She can “save” him and make him a happier human being and voila! Prince Charming emerges from the frog through the power of the love of a good woman. Yeah, it’s a fairy tale. Yeah, he turns into an asshole with her as soon as he’s got whatever it was he wanted. And then she breaks up with him when she’s had enough.

    I’ve been married to my husband for 18 years. Not all relationships are doomed to end. By your logic, why live? We’re all going to die someday anyway.

  • and i think if some people can have a wife + two lovers, then i AM entitled to at least one blowjob. law of averages.

    What?! Law of averages? That’s as nonsensical as saying I deserve a million dollars because Bill Gates and Oprah are loaded and GIVE IT TO ME NOW!!!

    Unbelievable. The only way that comment works is if you believe women aren’t human beings and we get allotted to each male like uniforms are handed out to recruits.

  • Pedro

    a. not EVERY dad treats their daughters like shit. mine did. he was a jerk. but not all are.

    b. my father and mother were married 14 or so years. in the end she found out he’d been seeing another woman for all those years, PLUS the seven years of dating that preceded the marriage. see where i’m going with this?

    c. my high school pal was actually understanding. she was like a guy to me, and guys are usually better with this type of situation than women.

    d. my best friend has an amazing girlfriend. she’s funny, she’s sweet, she clearly loves him, she likes hard rock….but to me, she’s ugly. really really ugly. that tends to be case – awesome girls are also usually ugly. there are exceptions, but those are taken. if i could find one like that, i’d get into a relationship.

    e. you still haven’t clarified, Christina, why women in their mid-20’s continue to judge men by wallet and dick size.

    f. as for fuckbuddies, me being a virgin and all, i guess it’s better to have one BEFORE i get into a serious relationship, right, amanohyo? because, y’know, WOMEN TEND TO DEMAND EXPERIENCE by this point in a guy’s life. right?!

  • “…because, y’know, WOMEN TEND TO DEMAND EXPERIENCE by this point in a guy’s life. right?!”

    1. stop shouting, please.

    2. idiots would “demand” this. grown women would not.

  • a. Who said anything about EVERY?

    b. So b/c one person (the guy, btw) was unfaithful, ALL relationships are doomed?

    c. Any wonder why that might be, besides “women suck because they won’t suck me”?

    d. So much for you not being one of those “Why won’t women date me, they’re all so superficial, she’s too ugly for me” kinda Nice Guys(tm).

    e. I could clarify until the Second Coming, Pedro and it wouldn’t be good enough for you. You want to feel sorry for yourself. You want to feel like you’ve been denied your birthright. You want to blame half the human population for your own failings. I can’t help you.

    f. No. Women don’t “tend to demand experience”. They tend to demand consideration and a willingness to be taught and a willingness to explore and be corrected and that is something you can get without getting your willy wet and something that plenty of guys who have more notches on their belt than John Holmes don’t have.

  • Pedro

    …then why do they have those notches in their belt, then? aren’t you contradicting yourself?

  • Pedro

    oh, and they’re not ALL superficial. but the non-superficial ones turn into guys for me, for some reason. maybe because they’re mostly unnatractive and/or have guy senses of humour.

    for example, do you find this joke funny? “two peanuts are sitting up a tree. one falls off and the other CRACKS UP laughing”. if so, then you have a guy sense of humor. NOT ONE “hot chick” has ever found this funny, but guys and “interesting/ugly” women do.

  • Pedro

    oh, and that example about my father is just the tip of the iceberg.

    try a couple dating for three years, then she leaves to live someplace else and they never speak again. try a couple breaking up over undone dishes, a la “The Breakup”. try a boyfriend going to care for his sick girlfriend, acting as her bedside maid for three days, and then she heals, goes out with her girl-friends to party and “forgets” to call him to say thanks.

    i could go on forever…all true stories, too. and it’s not always the guys who are the jerks, either.

  • …then why do they have those notches in their belt, then? aren’t you contradicting yourself?,

    Just because you can put your penis in the hole doesn’t mean it was good for the hole, dear.

    As for you other posts, troll away. I’m done here.

  • Pedro

    i’d settle for putting it in the hole…

    *shuts up*

  • MaryAnn

    Okay, enough. This is a site for discussing movies, and ancillary topics. This is not a site for Pedro’s therapy.

  • fugyou

    to everyone bitching about this movie, SHUT THE FUCK UP!!! It’s a damn movie; this kind of comedy is never going to go away, so getting your vaginas in a knot isn’t going to change anything. Yeah, I said it. Why do feminists always have to make a big deal out of this kind of thing? It’s not like they are really out doing degrading women like this; it’s just humor. And even if that’s what they really did, there are still women out there who do the same god damn thing! Anyway, it’s not like it matters what anyone says, because nothing’s going to change; and I’m sure those two are crying… all the way to the bank.

    PS: This movie IS funny. It’s dirty comedy. Comedy is fucking comedy whether it’s clean or dirty. If you don’t like it, simply put it out-of-mind and get over it, because bitching about how “immature” and “thoughtless” this movie is isn’t going to change anything.

  • Victor Plenty

    The world is a better place now than it was 30 years ago, and much better than 50 years ago, and vastly better than 100 years ago, because so many feminists have courageously refused to “shut the fuck up” despite moronic orders barked by ignorant and clueless people. Real men are thankful for the feminist movement because it has changed the world for the better. It has opened our eyes to the possibilities of fulfilling relationships with fully human partners.

    Mainstream culture assumes women are subhuman, inferior beings. It admits some women may be better or worse than others, but most women are lower than most men, and the greatest of all women are still beneath a truly great man.

    This idea still afflicts far too many men, even many who are unwilling or unable to openly state that they believe it. I call it an affliction, despite all the entitlements and privileges it claims to give, because it takes away something far more important. Every time we fail to acknowledge the full human value of any other person, we lose a portion of our own humanity. When this idea invades our sexual relationships, it destroys real intimacy and fulfillment.

    There is no way to avoid this. It is an immutable law. A fully human life can be lived only in the company of others who are also equally human. A truly human sexual life can be enjoyed only with a partner we are able to respect as an equal.

    Today more men are able to do this than ever before in the history of the world, thanks to feminists. More women and men than ever before have a better chance at real happiness in their relationships, thanks to feminists.

    Until all women and men are freed from the vicious distortions of sex imposed by the legacy of patriarchal cultures, I hope the feminists will never stop fighting for us all.

  • To everyone bitching about this movie, SHUT THE FUCK UP!!!

    For some odd reason, I find myself actually missing Pedro…

    For example, do you find this joke funny? “two peanuts are sitting up a tree. one falls off and the other CRACKS UP laughing”. if so, then you have a guy sense of humor. NOT ONE “hot chick” has ever found this funny, but guys and “interesting/ugly” women do.

    I don’t find that joke funny and I’m pretty sure I’m a guy.

    i could go on forever…all true stories, too. and it’s not always the guys who are the jerks, either.

    All too true.

    On the other hand, it’s not always the guys who get the worst of it either.

    Someday when you’re older and you’ve met more people, you might realize this.

    This is not a site for Pedro’s therapy.

    Sorry, MaryAnn.

    But back in my 20’s, I often had many thoughts similar to Pedro’s and it was only when I grew older–and started developing some type of perspective–that I started to change.

    So I guess I’m in kind of a “there but for the grace of God go I” type of mood.

  • Nicki

    haha I think it’s hilarious how you guys are analyzing Miss March. It’s a movie. I am a female and I was not offended by this movie whatsoever. I actually found it quite amusing. I respect myself enough to know that every movie made is not about a sexist group of males and am able to actually enjoy the movie. How sad it must be to not be able to do so.

  • Grinebiter

    Being new here, I’ve just come across this thread.

    @ChristinaM33: Thank you for the Heartless Bitches site, which I have bookmarked, read some of, and shared with some friends. One of these, my best female friend, had taken a similar line about self-confidence. It’s absolutely certain that I used to be a Nice Guy(tm). Now, I would be difficult to classify, since I still have some of the same attitudes but am not interested in acquiring a girlfriend. Old bachelor with lots of other fish to fry. I’m not Pedro and don’t want therapy, so enough of that.

    But no one seems to talk about what makes Nice Guys(tm) what they are. Entitlement, okay, I see that. But I think some of it is parents who tell their sons that if they are Nice, sufficiently Nice, then girls will want them. Secondly, I think a lot about self-confidence, and whether it is possible to acquire a healthy self-confidence later in life if one has been brought up without any. I’m inclined to think that it is not.

  • But no one seems to talk about what makes Nice Guys(tm) what they are. Entitlement, okay, I see that. But I think some of it is parents who tell their sons that if they are Nice, sufficiently Nice, then girls will want them. Secondly, I think a lot about self-confidence, and whether it is possible to acquire a healthy self-confidence later in life if one has been brought up without any. I’m inclined to think that it is not.

    The one problem with the whole Nice Guy thesis is that it forgets that even confident, responsible people who take pride in being mature, responsible adults can have messed-up love lives.

    I’ve seen it happen over and over again and I often suspect the one factor that made me a relative late bloomer in the dating world was the way real-life events often made me ask myself the same question: “If so-and-so can have such a messed-up private life despite having so much going for him, what’s to prevent me from screwing up my love life?”

    Anyway, the older I get, the more amused I get at the attempts people make to simplify things that aren’t all that simple in real life.

    People in real life tend to be complicated.

    People in ideology tend to be simple.

    When I was much younger, I used to make fun of the people in movies and plays and believe that I would never make such mistakes when I was older.

    But then I grew older and found myself making my own mistakes and I came to have more understanding and sympathy about the various reasons people have for making such errors.

    That doesn’t mean that I condone irresponsible behavior or that I don’t empathize more with the victims of someone’s misbehavior far more than the perpetrator of said misbehavior. People should take responsibility for their misdeeds and it annoys the hell out of me when movies and TV shows suggest they shouldn’t.

    However, something tells me that the next time I meet someone who has been beaten or abused by their ex-boyfriend and spouse, my first and most important question should not be whether or not getting involved with them will make me a Nice Guy(TM).

    Perhaps Heinlein put it best: do you want what it’s best for the person you allegedly care for or do you want what it’s best for you?

    If the answer is the former, there may be hope for you yet but if the answer is the latter–and only the latter–you might want to think about why exactly you profess to care for this person.

  • Grinebiter

    Perhaps Heinlein put it best: do you want what it’s best for the person you allegedly care for or do you want what it’s best for you?

    I think I know the quote you mean, unless it’s his disciple Spider Robinson: isn’t it formulated more along the lines that love is when the interests of the other person matter more to you than your own?

    If that is what love is, then we need to recognise that wanting to get into her pants, to have him support us and our children, to sport a trophy, to secure social approval as a couple, to obtain self-validation and so on and so forth, are nothing whatever to do with it. Although I am a hard atheist, I think the religions are right, that love and sex are two quite different things, not to mention the social reasons for having relationships. It’s a four-cell matrix, in any given relation you can have love or sex, or both, or neither. That love and sex are sometimes found together does not change this: bacon and eggs are sometimes found together too, but an egg is not bacon. I also believe that there is no ethical merit whatsoever in infatuation; for every occasion on which it leads to your doing good stuff for the Other, there is (at least) one occasion on which it leads to your doing bad stuff for her. And god help the bystanders.

  • Accounting Ninja

    @Tonio: One of the other things I realized upon getting older is that people can LOOK like they have everything going for them (especially when we compare ourselves to them), but once you peel back the veneer they are just as messed up as anyone else. That’s why comparing yourself to others is death, because we only see snippets of people’s true selves, unless we’re very close. But even then…

    But no one seems to talk about what makes Nice Guys(tm) what they are. Entitlement, okay, I see that. But I think some of it is parents who tell their sons that if they are Nice, sufficiently Nice, then girls will want them. Secondly, I think a lot about self-confidence, and whether it is possible to acquire a healthy self-confidence later in life if one has been brought up without any. I’m inclined to think that it is not.

    Speaking as a person who had zero confidence in herself as a young person, I can say this is false. I also was a Nice Girl, female variant of the narcissistic, entitled archetype, when I was a teen. I grew up geeky and unpopular. Family DID tell me that I was beautiful and smart and that other girls were just “jealous” (ha!), and that if I would only “be myself” boys would like me. That didn’t work out so much. So, I thought I was a special, unique girl who was perfect for every crush she ever had. Those popular girls were all shallow bitches. In fact, she didn’t even have to be popular; if she was dating and I wasn’t, she was a slut. I had this weird combo of self-absorbed and self-hating. In my head I was the BEST, but reality often slapped me in harsh ways.

    So, I was insufferable, and had to get my head out of my own ass in order to begin healing. Over the years, I’ve developed a strong, healthy sense of self so I didn’t feel so dependent on other’s approval. I did develop confidence, through hard work, hard lessons and introspection. It IS possible, but you need to focus much less on yourself and more on others in an empathetic way. Plus, thinking in less black-and-white terms about life helps.

    All this being said, I hate Nice Guys (and they do exist, I’ve known some), because most of the time, they are WAY too old to be continuing this shit. And, the most hardened ones refuse to look at themselves honestly, even when pointed to thorough articles about it like on Heartless Bitches. Also, there’s the popular notion that Nice Girls don’t even exist. Girls NEVER get rejected and they have it SO easy. Don’t make me laugh. (Maybe that’s just because fat, ugly or geeky women are invisible to lots of guys, so they don’t even notice the rejection these gals face). Just the other day a good male friend of mine (not a Nice Guy) tried to tell me women have no idea about rejection. I didn’t really have time to get into my history, but I did say it’s not true. I’ve felt rejection MANY times. He laughed and said I could go into a bar and pick up anyone I wanted (!). Seriously?? And keep in mind, this guy is very good-looking, funny and confident. I’m these things too, but I also know I’m not every man’s cup o’ tea, and that’s cool. But it does burn me that some men think women can’t/don’t ever get rejected. And just because a man might sleep with me doesn’t mean he can’t reject me later.

  • I think I know the quote you mean, unless it’s his disciple Spider Robinson: isn’t it formulated more along the lines that love is when the interests of the other person matter more to you than your own?

    True.

    Actually the original quote is as follows:

    “Love” is that condition in which the happiness of another person is essential to your own.
    –Robert A. Heinlein, Stranger In A Strange Land

    I admit my paraphrasing of said quote was a bit clumsy but I would like to think I got close to the point the author was trying to make.

    Then again, one close friend once told me that we can’t control with whom we fall in love but we can control the ways we choose to respond to that emotion.

    Which may or may not be the same thing.

  • That’s why comparing yourself to others is death, because we only see snippets of people’s true selves, unless we’re very close. But even then…

    Fair enough.

    And yet it’s something we do, regardless.

    Nor is it always wrong. Had I not compared myself in my mid-20s to an older cousin who had gone seriously wrong–and whom I had regarded as a surrogate older brother–and had I not asked myself what was to prevent me from sharing the same fate as that same older cousin, I might have gone down the same dark path that he did.

    But you’re right. In most cases, comparisons do little more than create envy and envy rarely leads to anything positive.

    It IS possible, but you need to focus much less on yourself and more on others in an empathetic way. Plus, thinking in less black-and-white terms about life helps.

    I agree.

    Just the other day a good male friend of mine (not a Nice Guy) tried to tell me women have no idea about rejection.

    Now you’re starting to remind me of some of the discussions I used to have with my little sister about which sex had it worse in the dating process: the one that traditionally does the asking out or the one that traditionally has to wait to be asked out.

    Mea culpa.

    Mea maxima culpa.

  • Grinebiter

    One of the other things I realized upon getting older is that people can LOOK like they have everything going for them (especially when we compare ourselves to them), but once you peel back the veneer they are just as messed up as anyone else.

    Absolutely. The reason guys who are definitely not Nice in any sense, let’s call them the Cads, are so successful with women (at least young ones, and up to a point) is arguably that they don’t impose the burden of idealisation upon them. No one has ever idealised me, but if someone did, I think I might react badly too. One would want to act worse than usual, to open their eyes to one’s sublunary reality. No?

    Family DID tell me that I was beautiful and smart and that other girls were just “jealous” (ha!), and that if I would only “be myself” boys would like me. That didn’t work out so much.

    Mutatis mutandis, that sounds familiar. Let me guess, the business of the other girls being just jealous was from the maternal unit?

    He laughed and said I could go into a bar and pick up anyone I wanted (!).

    Men do indeed say this crap. It’s sheer envy, but they haven’t thought it through. Take them to a bar full of hideous female drunks, of whom one, but no one knows which, is a serial murderess, and tell them they can pick whichever they want.

    Ninja, you disagreed with the second part of my paragraph. Any thoughts on the first: that Nice Guys(tm) are as they are because they have been seriously misled by their parental units into believing that the schtick is the right way to go about it? If that is so, the next question would be why the parental units would want to mislead their sprogs in a way that leads to system failure.

  • Accounting Ninja

    Ninja, you disagreed with the second part of my paragraph. Any thoughts on the first: that Nice Guys(tm) are as they are because they have been seriously misled by their parental units into believing that the schtick is the right way to go about it? If that is so, the next question would be why the parental units would want to mislead their sprogs in a way that leads to system failure.

    Well, I don’t want to lay the blame on my family. It’s hard, having a child who never fits in, and you are powerless to make it easier for them. Kids pick on them, they have no friends, they cry a lot. You, being the parent, see the beautiful in your own child and it’s hard to see them through the eyes of other kids. I think my parents were just trying to ease the pain, plus they suffered from that adult disease of Complete Amnesia of the Realites of Childhood.

    Anyway, being nice in and of itself isn’t a “schtick”. Back when I thought I was so nice and special, I actually WASN’T very nice at all. It was all about ME, and my fantasies. I didn’t really care about anyone else, and this would often manifest in those times where another human would show me his/her faults and I’d get all disillusioned about people. I’m sure my peers would remember me as pissy, self-centered, mopey and just no fun to be around. And they’d be right.

    Now, years later, if I were single, I’d have a much easier time. There’s no agenda anymore. No weird fixations on men I barely know. No demanding he contort to my hidden fantasies and spurning him when he doesn’t. No more taking myself deadly seriously. No thinking I’m all that with awesome sauce and he’s LUCKY to even be privy to my private, DEEP DEEPNESS.

    Nor is it always wrong. Had I not compared myself in my mid-20s to an older cousin who had gone seriously wrong–and whom I had regarded as a surrogate older brother–and had I not asked myself what was to prevent me from sharing the same fate as that same older cousin, I might have gone down the same dark path that he did.

    Self-examination and healthy comparison (like identifying certain family traits that make it more likely you may repeat a cycle of abuse/addiction/etc) isn’t the kind of comparing I indulged in. My comparisons were to people I barely, if ever, knew, and they ALWAYS had it better than me, ALWAYS. Or even if I did know them, I was so stuck inside myself I rarely saw the geniune representation of who they really were (because doing so would have interfered with my FANTASY of who they were). It was basically an excuse to throw up my hands and not do the real work needed to mature and admit that maybe all the common denominators in my failed relationships was ME.

    Mutatis mutandis, that sounds familiar. Let me guess, the business of the other girls being just jealous was from the maternal unit?

    Mostly my grandma and extended family who used the “jealous of your pretty” angle. My parents would use the “smart and talented” angle, both of them O_o.

    Absolutely. The reason guys who are definitely not Nice in any sense, let’s call them the Cads, are so successful with women (at least young ones, and up to a point) is arguably that they don’t impose the burden of idealisation upon them. No one has ever idealised me, but if someone did, I think I might react badly too. One would want to act worse than usual, to open their eyes to one’s sublunary reality. No?

    I agree, putting anyone on a pedestal is rather insulting. I did it too, by refusing to actually get to know the object of my affections, and then lament that he dated other girls and couldn’t read my mind and my intense LOVE for him. If he’d ever gone out with me, I’d surely have smothered him in a possessive, insecure miasma. It’s been many years since I was this way, though. :)

    I thought of another reason Nice Guys burn me so. Not only are Nice Girls and “undesirable” women ignored, but the male variety are constantly told via media that the Nice Guy always deserves the Hot woman. There are so many movies like this, Post Grad the one recently brought to mind. So boys are told that they don’t have to change, that they are OWED a hot woman, damnit. After all, the leading lady always finally wises up and goes out with the Dogged Nice Guy. What do we “undesirable women” get? Movies like She’s All That and Princess Diaries, which are just hot popular girls in Nerd Drag. We’re told we need complete makeovers and overhauls before we are acceptable. The nice guy just has to perservere: it’s hot woman’s fault she’s so blind. Things like this can make a gal see red as a teen, and even now.

    So, while I can sympathize with the mentality, I also want to just smack some sense into these fools. Or I would if they weren’t potentially terrifying: the end result of a supremely entitled Nice Guy was that one who shot up a gym recently because women ignored him.

  • JoshB

    the male variety are constantly told via media that the Nice Guy always deserves the Hot woman.

    Do you think that’s a good thing for Nice Guys? That the media sells them on such nonsense?

  • Grinebiter

    Well, I don’t want to lay the blame on my family. It’s hard, having a child who never fits in, and you are powerless to make it easier for them. Kids pick on them, they have no friends, they cry a lot. You, being the parent, see the beautiful in your own child and it’s hard to see them through the eyes of other kids. I think my parents were just trying to ease the pain, plus they suffered from that adult disease of Complete Amnesia of the Realites of Childhood.

    I’m trying to do comprehension more than blame here. I don’t like the description of a male syndrome that is then assumed to be sui generis, like something out of Alice: “He only does it to annoy, because he knows it teases”. HB’s descriptions are spot on, but I miss the aetiology; and if we don’t tackle that, we fall into the cognitive attribution abyss I mentioned in another thread.

    Anyway, what you say makes sense. I myself was Parental Status Technology and so I don’t think their prime directive was to ease any pain, nor did they see anything beautiful in me, they were just worried about how I might reflect on them. A natural reaction to that would be to become even more eccentric, no, not to mention imperviousness to even sound counsel. (Perhaps that’s too hard as regards my mother. She did keep telling me not to seem too eager with girls, to pretend indifference. Good advice, but I don’t have an actor’s bone in my body and simply couldn’t do it.)

    Anyway, being nice in and of itself isn’t a “schtick”. Back when I thought I was so nice and special, I actually WASN’T very nice at all.

    Being a Nice Guy(TM) within the meaning of the HB site is so a schtick, and that’s what I meant. And if the Nice Guy(TM) is not actually nice at all, why should the Nice Gal(TM) be any better?

    The Portrait of the Ninja as a Young Girl is one the bravest things I’ve seen for a long time, kudos to you. I love clearsightedness.

    My parents would use the “smart and talented” angle, both of them O_o.

    Is O_o an emoticon? Don’t know that one.

    If he’d ever gone out with me, I’d surely have smothered him in a possessive, insecure miasma.

    Good line, miasma is a great word. If anyone had gone out with me, I’d surely have smothered her in a possessive, insecure miasma too.

    I thought of another reason Nice Guys burn me so. Not only are Nice Girls and “undesirable” women ignored, but the male variety are constantly told via media that the Nice Guy always deserves the Hot woman.

    Should the Nice Girls there be capitalised? Because then that would be the (TM) equivalent, no? And then they ought to be ignored, because they are actually not nice, as per previous definitions? Second, you’ve seen more of these movies than I have ( I don’t do rom-coms any more); are the dogged ones nice guys or Nice Guys(TM)? Because if they’re nice guys, who finally win the girl from the asshole, what’s to complain about? But if they’re merely Nice Guys(TM), competing with the asshole, then the film contains no truly good men at all. That is, of course, possible, but in that case we males should start complaining about misandrist movies, no?

    Finally, the perception that nice guys finish last has some very damaging consequences. I have known softies who have put a lot of work into pretending to be assholes, into the whole “treat her mean” schtick, because they are honestly convinced — from direct observation but also from their fallible interpretation thereof — that this is efficacious, in fact the only way to get and keep a woman. Of course, if you pretend to be something for too long, that’s what you become…..

  • Accounting Ninja

    Clearing up some confusion: Both Nice Guys and Nice Girls exist, and they aren’t really nioe. I believe the “syndrome” is rather normal (but no less insufferable) for a teen, especially an outsider teen. It’s only when it persists into the 20s and beyond that they are commonly referred to as Nice Guys on internet sites like HB. I was definitely one of them as a teen, but by my early 20s I had begun the work to free myself from that prison.

    Girls of this type are often ignored in our culture, which is what I was talking about: Girls are told we definitely don’t deserve the football star, because look how fat and ugly and desperate we are! You need to change your looks and insides completely, Ugly Girl, and you deserve the rejection you get until you do so. But you, Nerdy Boy, we’ll make tv and movies cater to you. Maybe because a lot of former Nerdy boys are making media nowadays, I dunno. But there’s never any question as to whether he deserves the hot cheerleader, and he rarely ever needs a physical makeover. It doesn’t matter if the character is actually nice (like Andy from the 40 Year Old Virgin), or a Nice Guy (Dr. Horrible comes to mind). The movie is still on his side. And then, like mentioned before, women are told they have it easy. This is another instance of there being many types of man: nerd, nice, jock, cad, and on, but only one Woman. You are Woman. Unless you are old, ugly or fat, then you are invisible. Not fuckable=not worth mentioning. I guess it’s flattering (ha) that I get told I have it easy. That means I’m largely fuckable. Yay. Back when I was fat and ugly and Nice, men were strangely silent on the subject. :D

    And to JoshB: It’s not a good thing for anyone, IMO. And yet it keeps happening.

    Being a Nice Guy(TM) within the meaning of the HB site is so a schtick, and that’s what I meant. And if the Nice Guy(TM) is not actually nice at all, why should the Nice Gal(TM) be any better?

    Ah, I thought you meant what parents say to their NG offspring. I’m sure when a parent says “just be nice”, they don’t have in mind this particular schtick. They are actually talking about being genuinely nice. But because the NG sees the world very narrowly and refuses to accept any blame for his/her relationships failing, s/he will twist “being nice” into a sort of game to get ass or accolades. It must be THEIR fault. Because I’m perfect and oh-so-nice. Stupid bitches (bastards) who can’t see it. Maybe the neophyte NG started out being very nice, and maybe still is in some areas. But they haven’t figured out their lack of self-confidence and bitterness about women (or men) is a huge turnoff. They think “I was nice and I didn’t get laid (or become super-loved and popular) like people say!” Then they might blame it on parents or teachers or Dear Abby or even the desired gender for “perpetuating lies”. But this is only to avoid blaming themselves, you see.

    And indeed Nice Gals and Guys are equally insufferable. Don’t think I wouldn’t be equally as hard on a girl with her head in her own ass.

    For what it’s worth, I would be pretty hurt if my (really) nice husband had pretended to be an ass to “get” me. That is just so shitty on so many levels. Do you really want the woman that works on? One of the major symptoms of NGness is fixating on women (or men) who aren’t right for you, soley on looks or your fantasy of who they are. Looking back, I ignored a lot of great guys in high school because I always had my sights set on boys who didn’t know or care that I existed. And I’ve had Nice Guy friends do the same. They’ll focus on the hottie they just met on the bar crawl last night but disregard our mutual girl friend who’s been crushing on him for like, 3 years. Le sigh.

    I love O_o. It’s perfect for stunned incredulity.

  • Grinebiter

    @Ninja: I’m hearing you. Put the (TM) after NG whenever it’s meant ironically, and lower-case nice whenever it’s meant honestly, and things will be less confusing, neh?

    From the other thread you know how “two legs can do no wrong, three legs can do no right” pisses me off. But you seem very even-handed; I think I shall dub you an “equal-insufferability feminist”. ;-)

    But there’s never any question as to whether he deserves the hot cheerleader, and he rarely ever needs a physical makeover.

    Reminds me how annoyed I was by “Revenge of the Nerds”, which couldn’t rise above the assumption that the cheerleader was the holy grail. My best female (nerd) buddy and I discussed this in high dudgeon. (Wish she could join in these discussions.)

    The NG(tm) twisting niceness into a game: absolutely, and then, as you imply, treating failure in terms of Breach of Cosmic Contract.

    For what it’s worth, I would be pretty hurt if my (really) nice husband had pretended to be an ass to “get” me. That is just so shitty on so many levels. Do you really want the woman that works on?

    Not me. I told you I couldn’t even hack my mother’s advice of pretending indifference, or being cool as we would say now; how much less could I hack the advice of such friends to graduate from being a Nice Guy(tm) to a Total Bastard? It was partly because I can’t act, and partly because I didn’t like the idea that this might actually work, and what it implied. Same deal with someone who tried to persuade me that the Answer was a frilly shirt (1973, natch….); my reaction was that anyone for whom that made all the difference wasn’t worth having anyway. I’m a really obstinate character, see.

    They’ll focus on the hottie they just met on the bar crawl last night but disregard our mutual girl friend who’s been crushing on him for like, 3 years.

    He probably didn’t know, right? And she not permitted by social mores to make the first move, alas. Methinks it should be February 29 all year.

  • Paul

    The idea that there is only one Woman in Hollywood (with evidence to the contrary dismissed) while more than one kind of Man is interesting. This probably ties into the issue of the prepondance of publishers and movie producers being men, greenlighting movies that fit this. However, I would suggest that it is actually that there is one positive image of “Woman” on typical display but multiple negative ones.

    This is why genre fiction and movies are useful. The great thing about great science fiction is its ability to reframe reality to show different angles. It can look at race and sex in different ways than mainstream movies and fiction bother. Early science fiction had a lot of bimbos, but also pioneered the sort of strong women that are only now showing up on mainstream shows. If you can find it, check out the video of Joss Whedon being interviewed about why he writes “strong women characters.” Apparently he was asked that question so many times he wrote a speech about the answers.

    I was at a science fiction con, and a panel was discussing sex roles in science fiction. I asked a question, granting the positivity of having action heroines, but asked if there was any room in SF for a male Jane Austen. The looks on the panelists’ faces suggest that it had never occured to them, which is ironic since most of them are writers, with more in common with Austen personally than with a superhero.

  • johnr

    I guess the movie got left behind a long time ago in this discussion, eh?

    At any rate, I think more buttons are pushed here because this movie is particularly crass, and Playboy shows up to push additional buttons, but come on — 50% of Hollywood consists of buttering up one gender at the expense of the other. The everyday guys’ film objectifies women, and the everyday chick flick victimizes them. Don’t watch either, I say.

Pin It on Pinterest