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artisanal film reviews | by maryann johanson

for those who doubt that women can be misogynist…

Great Gatsby Carey Mulligan Isla Fisher Elizabeth Debicki

The women of After Ellen think it’s totes cute to sort other women into “shag,” “marry,” or “dump” categories:

Shag, Marry, or Dump: The Women of “The Great Gatsby”

[L]et’s put The Great Gatsby to the real test. Who would you Shag, Marry, or Dump between Carey Mulligan (Daisy Buchanan), Isla Fisher (Myrtle Wilson), and Elizabeth Debicki (Jordan Baker)?

Let’s not.

Apparently this “Shag, Marry, or Dump” shit is a regular thing at After Ellen. Disgusting.

Thanks to bronxbee for the heads-up.


posted in:
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  • Dr. Rocketscience

    Oooohhh, misogynist lesbians. How egalitarian. Or, something…

  • J

    For some added context, AfterEllen’s “brother” site, AfterElton.com (which is now called thebacklot.com) regularly has “marry, f*ck, or kill”/”shag, marry, dump” etc. columns for male stars, too.

    Is this really “misogyny” or is it lesbians having a bit of shallow fun, ranking who they’re attracted to the same way that straight and gay men do, and let’s be honest, straight women do for men?

  • Dr. Rocketscience

    I dunno, J, will it make you feel better about yourself if we call it something else? Will it change the behavior into something other than a reductionist exercise attempting to classify other people on their desirability as a long or short term sexual partner (read in this context as “masturbation toy”), with the FMK version further indicating that anyone who doesn’t meet either standard need not be allowed to live? Or would it be all right with you if we call this “bit of shallow fun” a disgusting practice, regardless of who is engaging in it?

  • You guys are not seriously going to sit there and act like FMK is a totally new practice to all of you.

    Straight girls put up with worse from their men with nary a second thought but when lesbians do it all of a sudden it’s misogynistic and objectifying and the worst thing ever. Fuck outta here.

  • Dr. Rocketscience

    Who exactly are “you guys”?

  • You commenters.

    What was the purpose of such a question?

  • What? Who “puts up with” misogynistic bullshit from men “with nary a second thought”?

  • It’s objectifying no matter who does it.

    It’s possible to have fun with attraction without dehumanizing those you’re not attracted to.

  • Straight women, in general, do. Like all the time. I’m sick of it.

    Fuck, marry, kill is everywhere in popular culture but you only notice how misogynist it is when a lesbian is doing it, hmm?

  • Patrick

    What about that game that’s marketed to young girls: Mystery Date. Who’s the dreamboat? Who’s the dud? Nobody blinks at that? Doesn’t *that* teaches young girls to commodify young men? Wouldn’t that be deemed a tad misandric?

    That kind of crap sounds like an “adult” version of the same thing. It crosses all genders and all ages and all orientations. It’s a human problem.

  • Dr. Rocketscience

    Well, as of that writing, there were only two commenters: J, who is clearly aware of the existence FMK lists but considers them all (this one included) to be “shallow fun”, and myself. And I can assure you (and thanks for asking, btw) that I have railed at the insane levels of misogyny these lists represent when I’ve encountered them on “men’s” websites and magazines. That thing I wrote to J? I didn’t make it up just now. So I’m wondering why you’re yelling at people who aren’t here for things no one has said.

  • Because these arguments have a predictable trajectory. It’s like when someone starts a discussion about “why do women fall for bad boys instead of nice guys”? You know how the argument’s going to go before it even happens.

    But fine, if you want me to argue about something you said, how about this:
    “Oooohhh, misogynist lesbians. How egalitarian. Or, something…”

    How about you explain what the fuck that’s supposed to mean, huh?

  • Danielm80

    Fuck, Marry, or Kill is not a new meme, and dehumanizing women is not a new practice. Women were being treated this way long before Internet memes, or computers. MaryAnn calls attention to misogynistic bullshit like this all the time, even if she hasn’t singled out the FMK game for ridicule. In this case, though, it’s lesbians who are objectifying women, which shows how pervasive this sort of thing has become. The point is: Our society is such a mess that even women are sexist.

  • Dr. Rocketscience

    Because these arguments have a predictable trajectory.

    Well, sure, and I won’t be surprised to see J’s comment repeated 3 or 4 more times. If you want to make a preemptive strike against any pearl-clutchers who might show up, you might do the rest of us the courtesy of making that clear.

    How about you explain what the fuck that’s supposed to mean, huh?

    Since you ask…

    The “Oooohhh” – which probably isn’t coming across in text – comes from me wondering who these women are that think a ShagMarryDump list is a good idea, and discovering that the site caters to lesbians. I’m not surprised so much as disappointed. I’m sure the nice ladies at afterellen.com are well and truly broken up about my dissappointment.

    The “How egalitarian. Or, something…” is a snarking way of saying, “This series of articles makes it abundantly clear that the writers and/or editors and/or readers of afterellen.com want the world (read: straight men aged 18-29) to know that lesbians are just like you guys, and are willing to go to pretty extreme lengths to do so. To this site, equality means everyone gets to treat women like shit or meat. So, yay for that.”

  • I’m a regular reader of afterellen and also a feminist. Personally I find this to be not that big a deal, especially when compared to the multitude of truly offensive objectification women are subjected to every day. This is really a simple little popularity poll/beauty contest and while I personally don’t find it to be of value, I find your attack to be misplaced. I know the women who run AE. Some of them are friends and they are very thoughtful intelligent women. AE happens to be owned by LOGO and MTV so crap gets forced on them sometimes from the higher ups in search of page views

    Also Maryann, I’d be more apt to appreciate your point of view if I hadn’t just recently read your Torchwood pieces where you strongly defend Owen of the rightful charge of attempted rapist. Maybe since that time you’ve grown and now fully appreciate the importance of ENTHUSIASTIC consent as well as have a deeper understanding of rape culture. If so, I’d love to hear you take back what you wrote about him.

  • Yeah it couldn’t be because lesbians have opinions on who is attractive or who is not, right? The reason that article appeared on AfterEllen was due to the lesbian conspiracy to sell out straight women. You got it all figured out buddy. A+.

    Again: it takes a lot less for a lesbian to get called out as being “objectifying” than a straight man and I’m tired of it.

  • Danielm80

    What website do you think you’re reading? There are hundreds of posts on flickfilosopher.com calling out straight men for being “objectifying.” This is the first thread in a long time–maybe ever–calling out lesbians. And I think it’s fair to call out AfterEllen for implying that unattractive women ought to be killed.

    As Aaron Sorkin would say: Don’t talk to us like we’re other people.

  • ” And I think it’s fair to call out AfterEllen for implying that unattractive women ought to be killed.”

    They specifically changed it to “dumped” to avoid that implication. Which I have a hard time believing a straight man would ever feel the need to do, and yet apparently it’s on an equivalent moral plane anyway.

    I hold that a “dump, marry, kill” article would not register as misogynistic to most people if it were straight men writing it.

    I don’t think it’s misogynistic. People of all sexualities engage in FMK. The tone of MAJ’s post suggests that FMK is something completely new to society which was invented by us evil lesbians.

  • Dr. Rocketscience

    Yeah it couldn’t be because lesbians have opinions on who is attractive or who is not, right? The reason that article appeared on AfterEllen was due to the lesbian conspiracy to sell out straight women. You got it all figured out buddy. A+.

    And clearly a SMD/FMK list is the bestest way to express those opinions, with no social contexts, connotations, or consequences. A++.

    Again: it takes a lot less for a lesbian to get called out as being “objectifying” than a straight man

    I’m sorry, really, truly sorry*, that lesbians get called out for being assholes proportionately more often that straights. But I’m not sorry that these lesbians are getting called out here for being assholes, because the whole point is that “not being an asshole” shouldn’t be a particularly high bar to clear

    Help me out here. Why is this article ok? And don’t tell me some variation on how many worse things there are in the world. There are also starving kids in Pacoima, so fucking what, that kind of Derailing 101 argument is still bullshit.

    *The kind of sorry that comes from having close family members who are lesbians and seeing what they have to put up with and know that anything that I do will never, in and of itself, be enough.

  • Dr. Rocketscience

    They specifically changed it to “dumped” to avoid that implication.

    Well, it’s good to know that as long as you don’t threaten to kill the person, everything’s cool.

    Which I have a hard time believing a straight man would ever feel the need to do

    Which is part of the fucking problem.

    People of all sexualities engage in FMK.

    And they’re all wrong.

    The tone of MAJ’s post suggests that FMK is something completely new to society which was invented by us evil lesbians.

    If she’s somehow managed to avoid knowing about this charming little practice until now, I’d envy her. And if she has heard of it, and just hasn’t written about it until now, among all the other examples of misogyny, almost exclusively of the “men behaving badly” variety, that she writes about on an almost daily basis, well, she’s not your dancing monkey.

  • Jurgan

    I’m not getting it, I guess. I’ve played this game with my wife, both of us using both genders in the choices, and neither of us have ever seen anything wrong. It’s not like you’re saying you want to kill someone, it’s “if you’re forced to choose.” I mean, I get how there are different levels of objectification, and I get that saying “it’s just a joke” isn’t necessarily a defense, but… I don’t know, I’m not bothered by this. I’m not saying you’re objectively wrong if it bothers you, but I just don’t really see the problem.

  • Jurgan

    Thank you. In the first episode, Owen meets a woman who has no interest in him at all, he sprays himself with a chemical that makes him literally irresistible, and she’s all over him. This makes him a “stud?” (I assume that’s the situation you’re referring to- I haven’t seen more than a few episodes of Torchwood).

  • I think it’s okay to poll people about who they do and do not find attractive. I think that it is okay also to call lesbians out for being assholes but I do not see this as an example of lesbians being assholes and if it were straight men doing it I wouldn’t think it was a problem either, and nor (I suspect) would hardly anybody else.

    Are you really pulling the “I have gay friends” card right now?

  • Dr. Rocketscience

    Reductionism and commoditization: this game reduces people to their value for sex. Are they worth 1 fuck, multiple fucks, or no fucks at all, and that’s all they’re good for. Do you see at least the potential problem now?

  • Dr. Rocketscience

    No, I’m just not opening up the opportunity to being called insincere. And if you want to challenge my relationships with my family, you can fuck right the fuck off, but I think you know that.

    Wait, you want to defend this shit? Why didn’t you just say so, without all this derailing nonsense? I mean, that’s still bullshit, this kind of thing is not OK, no matter who says so, or how many weasel words we use (“hardly anybody”, huh?). But at least we know what we’re talking about now.

  • You pulled the “I have gay friends and family members” card. Saying that doing that is bullshit does not equal “challenging your relationships with your family”.

    As for your second question, I thought I had made it obvious that my position was that I didn’t think it was misogynistic and the only reason anybody did was because it was on AfterEllen. I have literally never in my life heard anybody object to FMK before.

  • Dr. Rocketscience

    Tell ya what then. I won’t divulge my reasons for taking personal interest in issues regarding women in general and gay women in particular, and you can knock it the fuck off with the “You got it all figured out buddy” crap, sound good?

    No, you made it clear that you had decided that the only reason “you guys” – at the time, MaryAnn, J, and myself – only thought FMK lists were objectionable was because lesbians had written one. One had to infer your personal opinion on the lists. And though it sets up a logical fallacy, “Straight girls put up with worse” certainly suggests you’re not a fan. Either way, you were subjectively wrong on the issue of the offensiveness of the lists (given that your argument in favor is “hardly anybody” dislikes them – and objectively wrong on the issue of the commenters opinions.

    I have literally never in my life heard anybody object to FMK before.

    Then you’ve learned something new today.

  • This reminds me of the time a pedophile told me I had no right to object to pedophilia, on the grounds that I am gay and therefore I can’t take moral exception to anything.

    She told me that she understood what it was to be gay more than I did, because even though she was straight she had participated in marches. She told me that because she was an ally she understood the gay experience more than I did.

    I hope that’s not what you’re implying.

    And when you said “misogynist lesbians”, it reminded me of the time a bunch of straight girls used those exact words to accuse me of being a pervert, said that “homophobia exists for a reason” and asked me how many little girls I had molested.

    So I flew off the handle. I’m sorry.

  • Dr. Rocketscience

    Those women are all objectively wrong, about a great many things. And I’m very very sorry that you went through that.

    I only understand my own experience, just like everyone else, and am not deliberately implying anything else, and I apologize if I am did so inadvertently. I also have sympathy, from the experiences of people I care about. It’s not the same thing as understanding, but it the best I have to work with.

    So I flew off the handle. I’m sorry.

    Thank you, I appreciate that.

  • Tonio Kruger

    I believe that’s the situation Ms. Treat is talking about. I also remember that episode and I’ve always been puzzled by MaryAnn’s response to it.

  • Who says “nobody blinks at that”?

    In fact, I have pointed out the commodification of men with regards to Mystery Date:

    http://www.flickfilosopher.com/blog/2011/03/watch_it_1960s_mystery_date_co.html

  • I sincerely don’t understand what you’re getting at. Because other women put up with misogynist bullshit, I must. Even when I complain about it all the time here.

    And I’m not allowed to complain about something until I’ve complained about everything else in the world that is worse?

  • I’d be delighted for you to point out all the times I’ve called out lesbians for being objectifying. Versus all the times I’ve done so with regards to straight men.

  • I hold that a “dump, marry, kill” article would not register as misogynistic to most people if it were straight men writing it.

    You’ve been around this site for a while. Do you sincerely believe that this would apply to me?

  • I haven’t rewatched that episode in years. It’s possible I might have a different reaction to it now.

    I’m not sure what that has to do with this. Though I do find it interesting that you defend AfterEllen because this SMD crap may be an example of something forced on them by higher-ups. So, even though they not have enthusiastically consented to it, you’re still okay with it?

    Unless you’re saying that my feminist criticism of something doesn’t count anywhere ever because of that one instance.

  • I’m saying it’s interesting sometimes what you choose to be offended by. I think TV shows laughing about men trying to rape women deserve more contempt, but you excused it because you like Torchwood.

    I am a lesbian and frequent visitor of AE. I know the women there and for you to trash them because of women joking around about who they find attractive, seems far out of line.
    I also said that I don’t personally think it has value. And if it’s forced by the higher ups what should they do? Quit their jobs?

  • Isobel_A

    I hold that a “dump, marry, kill” article would not register as misogynistic to most people if it were straight men writing it.

    .

    I have to say, I strongly disagree with that statement.

    I am very much of the opinion that snog, marry, avoid (as I know it) is a bunch of mysogynistic crap and, as a straight woman, I’ve only ever come across it from straight men. I think the vast majority of my friends would be in the same boat. Most of the men I know would wince a bit if someone suggested it.

  • Patrick

    My apologies. (But, I stand by my statement that this is a human problem in all walks of life.)

  • LaSargenta

    I hold that a “dump, marry, kill” article would not register as misogynistic to most people if it were straight men writing it.

    Maybe not to most men. It certainly does to me, and although “most people” seem to think that “memes” began with the internet, I can assure you they didn’t. I remember this shit as a shooting-the-breeze (with or without alcohol) topic when I was a teen back before the Cold War was made into history…and it wasn’t new then.

    I have always had a strong, visceral reaction to it and have whenever I have heard it, spoke up against it. On two occasions that remain vivid, my speaking up resulted in physical encounters.

    It is repellant and disgusting, not least because so very many people are killed because they are not ‘attractive’ to someone.

    If the majority of people around you are using this ‘meme’ as frequently as you indicate, I encourage you to find yourself a new milieu. I know I like to keep myself away from shitheads whenever possible.

  • Dr. Rocketscience

    AE happens to be owned by LOGO and MTV so crap gets forced on them sometimes from the higher ups in search of page views

    That’s a reason, not an excuse.

    I’d love to hear you take

    Something something dancing monkey…

  • LaSargenta

    Me, too. The “what a stud” comment in the post I first thought was sarcastic. Then, in the comments below, I realised it wasn’t. Or, at least, not completely.

    I definitely am on the side of the alien sex spray being morally equivalent to roofies.

  • Dr. Rocketscience

    It’s been a long time since I saw it, but I seem to recall that the scene was juxtaposing the awful behavior of the members of Torchwood (they were all stealing artifacts for personal use) with Jack Harkness’s romanticized description to Gwen of Torchwood’s mission.

  • So?

  • Um, okay. Whatever.

  • Dr. Rocketscience

    So, if memory serves, the show agreed that spray was a bad thing.

  • Dr. Rocketscience

    If MTV made them write a series of SMD articles, then that’s the answer to “What the hell were they thinking?” It’s a reason. But it doesn’t get them off the hook for taking criticism for having written it. No, I’m not asking them to quit their jobs in protest. I’m saying that sometimes, if your job requires you to do something that’s going to make people unhappy, you just have to eat shit for it. I’m sympathetic to that dilemma, but not to this article.

    You wanted MaryAnn to revisit an unrelated, 6 year old topic, because it would make you “more apt to appreciate [her] point of view”. You’re trying to frame it as a polite request, but what you’re doing is demanding that she justify herself to you. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, MaryAnn is not the dancing monkey of the readers.

  • No. The show treated it like a joke. Again, Owen was trying to RAPE a woman. Yet he still was a valued member of the team. No repercussions for him. He even got to bang the lead heroine of the show.

    No one involved in the making of that show had any thought for the message they were sending and neither did almost any reviewer or commentator I saw and that includes MaryAnn.

    That’s rape culture in a nutshell.

  • If that’s how you see it fine. To me they are related since we’re are talking about sexism. Not directly I admit, but in the same ballpark.

    As I said, the only reason it comes up now is that I just read her recaps the other day and was shocked to see MaryAnn, who I greatly appreciated as a feminist, defending a rapist.

    When she is attacking my friends, smearing them really, but I just saw her yesterday excuse an attempted rape, sorry if they don’t directly correlate, my brain still wants to know what gives.

    Just what exactly IS offensive to her? I’d love illumination. This is still coming from someone who loves her writing most of the time and holds her opinion on movies in high regard.

  • Dr. Rocketscience

    Did anyone else ever find out he was using the spray?

    neither did almost any reviewer or commentator I saw

    Really? No one else saw it but you? Remarkable.

  • Dr. Rocketscience

    If by “ballpark” you mean you’re in Citi Field and she’s playing in Yankee Stadium. Anyway, even if MaryAnn confirms your suspicion about that blog, all you’re really doing is setting up an in uno, in omnibus fallacy.

    When she is attacking my friends, smearing them really, but I just saw her yesterday excuse an attempted rape, sorry if they don’t directly correlate, my brain still wants to know what gives.

    Actually, it was 6 years ago. But hey, it’s not like your friends don’t have a voice, you know? In fact, they’ve got a whole commercial website, backed by MTV, and therefore, Viacom. Viacom, FFS! MaryAnn is just one woman with a blog.

    Just what exactly IS offensive to her? I’d love illumination.

    Again, she doesn’t answer to you. If you actually want to know, and aren’t just trying to score points, you just have to do so the way the rest of us readers do: read the blog. I think you’ll find a general trend. An occasional deviation, sure, but then no one is perfectly consistent on any issue. For example, you don’t see the obvious misogyny, reductionism, and commoditization in a FMK list, probably because this one is coming from your friends.

    (For those playing the home game: yeah, I keep using the same words. They express exactly what’s wrong here.)

  • Oh I saw PLENTY of people comment, such as in the threads here. What I didn’t see was ANY discussion in the mainstream.

    Is this concept so complex as to escape your comprehension?

  • Again, I said “I” just saw it yesterday.

    “score points” I find that funny coming from someone with your comment history.

  • Dr. Rocketscience

    Wait, there was mainstream discussion of Torchwood in 2006? >.>

    I comprehend just fine, thank you. I even agree. The character of Owen was a scumbag, and I was perfectly fine to see him get killed off. (Burn Gorman also creeps me right the fuck out.) I understand rape culture enough to recognize how incredibly problematic that sequence was. I was even viscerally squicked out by it, for whatever that’s worth. (I also think the entire scene, with the cuts to other characters, was intended to paint them all in a very bad light, but whatever.) So, yeah, I comprehend.

  • Dr. Rocketscience

    Yeah, I get that. But if you want to try and claim that it’s somehow relevant to this post, you can’t ignore the 7 year time interval between the two. If nothing else, that gives you 7 years worth of data to use to determine which comment is indicative of an overall attitude, and which is an anomaly.

    “score points” I find that funny coming from someone with your comment history.

    Oooh, burn. *eyeroll*

  • “Oooh, burn. *eyeroll*”

    lol Well you started it. ;)

  • I shouldn’t complain about something because they might have been forced to do it? You cannot be serious with this.

  • Again, not what I said. Where is your reading comprehension? Trashing AE and the women who work there is what I don’t like.

    YOUR point was that this poll PROVES women (specifically the ones at AE) can be misogynist. Obviously women can be, but if this poll is motivated ONLY by pressure from MTV then it says NOTHING about any of the women who work at that site. And thus, this poll is in no way proof of ANYTHING other than that big media companies are misogynist.

    And that’s not news.

  • And it proves that women are complicit in promoting misogyny. Even if it’s “just” their job to do so.

  • Dr. Rocketscience

    Actually, that is what you said. I’m not sure how you expect your first post to be read other than:

    1. an excuse for the content as “not that big a deal”

    2. an appeal to how “thoughtful and intelligent” the writers at afternellen are (as though nice people never do bad things)

    3. an appeal to the excuse that MTV made them do it (but if it’s not a big deal, then why does it matter who’s idea it was?)

    4. also, Owen from Torchwood 7 years ago (which is just a derailing tactic)

    if this poll is motivated ONLY by pressure from MTV

    That’s an “if” that you’ve offered nothing but your word to back up. The SMD series of posts ( a weekly feature going back more than 18 months) are as near as I can tell all credited to Heather Hogan, Senior Editor. Now, Ms. Hogan may or may not support the idea. If she does, then regardless of MTV’s involvement, she’s perpetuating a reductionist meme. If she doesn’t support the idea – in which case it must be coming from above her or else why write them at all? – then she may be taking the responsibility herself in order to shield her staff from any backlash. (I admire that.) In which case, she must have anticipated that there would be backlash, and therefore won’t be surprised that posts like MaryAnn’s are out there in the world. And if that’s the case, why are you getting worked up over something Ms. Hogan has already accepted as a cost of doing business?

  • LaSargenta

    if this poll is motivated ONLY by pressure from MTV then it says NOTHING about any of the women who work at that site.

    Well, it does. It says they are hungry enough to go along to get along. I don’t necessarily hold that against them personally, and I even have some sympathy if that is indeed the case; but, hey, I’m not going to ignore it.

  • “1. an excuse for the content as “not that big a deal”

    Not an “excuse”, your word which diminishes me from moment one, but rather my opinion. Small difference, but important.

    “2. an appeal to how “thoughtful and intelligent” the writers at afterellen are (as though nice people never do bad things)”

    Yeah I guess. A desire to point out that these aren’t random callow women but actually well spoken talented writers that readers of this site also appreciate just as we appreciate MaryAnn. Maryann’s readers who don’t go to AE have no idea who they are and undoubtedly get the impression from this article that they are a shallow, lesbian version of Maxim magazine. I wanted people to know that there is MUCH more to AE than this silly poll. Did it work?

    “3. an appeal to the excuse that MTV made them do it (but if it’s not a big deal, then why does it matter who’s idea it was?)”

    No, an attempt to direct the “disgust” at it’s rightful target but not “excusing” anything since as I said and you point out, I don’t think it’s a big deal.

    “4. also, Owen from Torchwood 7 years ago (which is just a derailing tactic)”

    You can keep calling it a derailing tactic, I keep saying it wasn’t. You bringing up the point “But nice people never do bad things” actually kind of makes a point. What MaryAnn’s rape excusal shows is that yes, nice people do bad things.

    Your last points are all excellent and I agree, I shouldn’t get worked up about it anymore. Heather has made her peace with it and understands the costs. AE is an important place to me, you have to understand. I go there daily, just like here. Now as I’ve said, I disagree with the entire premise of this article and to have AE, that place of importance to me seemingly trashed and dismissed out of hand bothered me greatly. Because even if her sole target was SMD and it’s ilk, this article has the effect of slamming the entire site intentional or not. It’s completely MaryAnn’s right to hate and attack the concept of SMD and I would never want her to change.

  • Patrick

    “Our society is such a mess that even women are sexist.”

    Are you saying women are *intrinsically* morally superior to men? If so, is it the lack of a Y chromosome?

    Here’s the ugly truth: misandry has been around as long as misogyny in the scope of human history–it’s just better hidden and considered more socially acceptable.

  • Danielm80

    I’m not saying any of the things you ascribed to me, but don’t let that stop you from getting on your soapbox.

  • Patrick

    Well, could you please clarify the statement?

  • Jurgan

    Yeah, I guess I see how it could be a problem, but I don’t really agree with it. Obviously it’s pure hypothetical- my real answer would always be “none- I’m happily married.” It just seems like a variation on the dilemma style of party games- you have to choose between several options, none of which are really appealing, so what do you do? And it’s not necessarily about sex- maybe you choose to marry the one who is most interesting personality wise even if not the most physically attractive, so it shows what you value. Still, I do see your point, and I’ll keep it in mind if it comes up again. Thank you for sharing it.

  • Danielm80

    I was saying that a woman has a personal interest in not mistreating or dehumanizing women, since she is a woman. If women are acting sexist, then there’s a problem.

    You may, of course, disagree that the game is sexist, but that topic has already been discussed at length elsewhere in the thread.

  • Lindt

    Women can be misogynists, no surprise there.

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