what one sequel would you erase from cinematic history? (QOTW)

-Terminator 3: since it completely negates everything established in T2
– Alien 3: They could have gone in so many cool directions after Aliens and they chose to mess up the ending of Aliens
– Universal Soldier – The Return (the original sequel, not the later ones): The original had at least some B-Movie charm, the sequel was the most painfull thing I saw in the cinema due to the use of heavy metal in the soundtrack blasting at full volume!

There are probably more but these just came to mind immediatly.

If we’re just going for part twos then I’d nominate Jaws 2. I may be biast (sorry!) as I loved the first one so much but the second opened the door to more cash grabbing and more cheapening of the Jaws ‘world’ I so enjoyed. I feel the same about the Pirates of the Caribbean franchise now; the first was a great popcorn romp at the time but the sequels added absolutely nothing, or even perhaps diluted the original.

If we’re talking part 3, 4, 5 of a franchise I wouldn’t even know where to start…

I remember being so very disappointed at Alien 3. I felt like they couldn’t possibly go wrong after an amazing first two films, the alien itself as terrifying and the hints were that it was to be set on earth (at which point the film almost writes itself!) Weaver was always a strong character and I can’t actually remember any other female action heroes at the time; they ruined her character in 3 and lazily disposing of the others off-screen was unforgivable.

Definitely Alien 3. With The Thing (2011) being a close second, although it’s a prequel…still…

Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom…because it sucked. It sucked in so many ways (Like racism! Whee!), but the most immediate problem for me — at that time, now I’d say the racism — was the fact that Karen Allen and her character Marion Ravenwood had been fantastic in the first, but, whoever that actor was who played the woman-who-screamed-all-the-time-and-was-annoying-as-all-getout, she pissed me off. That character was an embarrassment to all woman-kind and the actor was a traitor to her sex for agreeing to play it that way.

Ok, I just went to find out who the actor was because it is pretty damn disrespectful of me not to know even her name: Kate Capshaw.. Ms. Capshaw, you’re probably a perfectly nice person, but you have to understand that when I saw that movie back in 1984, I was constantly battling male-chauvanistic restrictions on my life and that character in an Indiana Jones movie was an insult. The Marion Ravenwood character was strong, complicated, and still definitely a woman. Women do not always have to be rescued and they certainly don’t have to actually become a liability on the adventure and I do not understand how that character was the result of watching (as the Wiki page claims) The African Queen and A Guy Named Joe. The female characters in those are not anything like what resulted on-screen. You probably should have included several Barbara Stanwyck movies in there…like Double Indemnity and Lady Burlesque. But, given how far afield the character ended up being, that probably wouldn’t have helped either.

I still think Ms. Capshaw is a traitor to her sex for playing it that way.

***********

PS: Oh yeah, and The Two Jakes sucked, too.

The matrix II and III.

The power of the first movie lies in assuming that reality, our reality, is a fiction. The second and third films make me feel like I’m being dragged back into the matrix.

I still like to pretend they don’t exist.

Secret of NIMH 2: Timmy 2 the Rescue. I don’t think I’ve ever had my heart crushed so hard by a trailer. The box art alone made me wince every time I saw it for rent.

Cars 2, I don’t mind John Lasseter playing with his favourite toys but it doesn’t mean I have to watch it. And it’s message of “you’re awesome just the way you are, if people don’t like it, they should be the ones to change” is shortsighted at best, especially when given to a character like Mater, that could’ve used a few lessons on respecting other people.

see my post elsewhere, there was a better version to complete a trilogy (trilogies for the most part work well if planned right), but it should have focused on the politics that underscored I and II and the dark mirror realization of the American Dream.

the only thing I hated about Alien 3 was that they killed off Dillon, who was being primed up to be the alien-hunter once Ripley sacrificed herself.

The woman in question in Temple of Doom was Kate Capshaw, a.k.a. Mrs. Spielberg.

My wife was recently taking a class in film. During the unit on film noir, she had to write an essay about female archetypes and how they’ve changed since the original noir era. Specifically, the femme fatale / bad girl and the virgin / good girl. My wife argued that modern audiences sometimes find the idea of the Virgin to be a bit hokey and will sometimes play it for laughs. She used Willie Scott in Temple of Doom as an example of this. Her teacher tried to claim that Willie is a “bad girl”. Um, no.

I think you just answered your own question.

I’d completely remove T3 from the timeline and jump straight to the Sarah Connor Chronicles, letting the Governator go out on a high (melting) point.

Alien3 is a fine, though flawed, film. And at least Ripley died a HERO. If you want to talk about a slap in the face to the character–try the movie that came after it.

I will also go with Alien3 as well. The story dumped the previous characters and relationships without extending or improving the story. I also recall thinking at the time that the direction and cinematography seemed more suited to TV than to a big screen movie. I didn’t hate them movie, but was just tremendously disappointed.

Yeah, Willie is the most fundamental problem, but there are plenty of others. The racism wasn’t even based on real stereotypes- it was completely confused and ignorant. When I saw the Indians using voodoo dolls, I had to start screaming at the screen.

Wow, if I can only pick one. Well, I’m gonna disqualify any sequel to a film, where the original shouldn’t have happened, so bye-bye “Transformers”, “Scream”, “Rush Hour”, “Scary Movies”… and so on. As far as like, a really pointless one, “Arthur 2: On the Rocks”, comes to mind. Not that I ever finished it, but I think we’ve all kinda erased that one from our mind. I some responses for “The Godfather Part III,” I actually like that film, not as the others of course, but awfulness is greatly exaggerated. “Shrek the Third”, was dreadful, that shouldn’t have existed, that’s gotta be near the top of my list. Any “Jaws” sequel has to be mentioned. “The Hangover Part II”, made my worst films list that years, that’s up there. Yeah, I think I’m leaning towards “Shrek the Third”, being my sole choice. “Shrek 4”, was okay, but “Shrek 3”, yeah, that one, eh, boy that one, completely unwatchable, filled with cliches; I can’t even imagine one redeeming worth of it, offhand, and really is a chapter in a book, that should just be skipped.

Capshaw wasn’t married to Spielberg in those days. He was still married to Amy Irving.

Agree that II was a horrible excuse for a flick, but it was badly written and Capshaw was PLAYING THE CHARACTER AS WRITTEN. IV was also horrible even though Karen Allen was back for part of it.

I remember reading that part of the reason her character was like that was because George Lucas was getting divorced at the time and he pushed things in that direction because it was really effecting him.

But I agree that Temple of Doom could be lifted right out of the continuity and no one would really miss it since it was a prequel anyway.

Ford-Spielberg-Lucas. The three guys who got that movie made, because it amused them to do so. I’m sure they’re all very sad that you weren’t amused as well. >.<

Surprised not to see Th Godfather Part 3 here. A wholly unnecessary sequel that is best left alone.

Ewoks pretty much did what Jar Jar did: introduce comic relief in the middle of a big battle. That pretty much undermines the dramatic tone of the battle, but it sold merchandise. Lucas apparently originally wanted to use Wookies but had to scale back on that idea. I’d have rather watched Wookies pull stormtroopers arms out of their sockets and beating them over the head with their own arms than this.

I guess I always figured that many more Ewoks died, but they died offscreen, and that the one who died was sort of a representation of all of them.

Yes, the script was shit, too; but, seriously, you’re saying that an actor has no power to interpret a role? Even with all that crap script, there would have been different ways to play it with respect to body language, intonation, expressiveness, and, too, plenty of actors do argue about who their character is. I gather actors like to understand motivation (aka: backstory). This all has an effect on what we see.

Yeah, maybe, but the only Virgin who worked as a nightclub singer that comes to mind is Jeannette MacDonald in San Francisco and her Virgin status was a big part of the plot (Spenser Tracy as her Priest/Protector, Gable as her WannabeSeducer/Protector).

Otherwise, if they still wanted all that screaming AND a more believable nightclub gold-digger, they could have gone with someone channelling Joan Davis in Abbot and Costello’s Hold that Ghost if they wanted funny or Barbara Stanwyck in Lady Burlesque if they wanted drama.

(When I was a kid, I practically lived at the Richelieu Theater in SF. Double bills every weekend that changed weekly, cheap, cheap bargain matinees, lots of old, old movies. The women in the 1930’s and 1940’s had tough talking dames, some of whom still needed rescuing, who were NOT what was being used for inspiration here.)

Aliens Vs. Predator: Requiem

The task in that assignment was to look at how the archetypes are interpreted differently in modern films. Her argument is that the Virgin (which doesn’t necessarily mean literally virginal, just idealized in some way) is not a trope that gets played straight all the time. For that matter, it didn’t get played straight in film noir ever. Between the two sisters in The Big Sleep, which is the Virgin and which is the Femme Fatale? In various ways, both.

I would vote for Cars 2. The most disappointing effort from Pixar ever.

Only thanks to the edit button. >.>

Comic relief isn’t necessarily a bad thing – it’s used by Shakespeare very effectively in all his tragedies, especially Hamlet. Too much drama can burn the audience out and/or slide over into melodrama. A comedic episode lessens tension, so it can be ratcheted up even higher afterwards.

Gonna make a huge leap here, but looking at Capshaw’s imdb page, and trying to remember her performances in other things that I’ve seen…I think that casting choice pretty much guaranteed a light-weight. She also probably was star-struck and had no personal rock to stand on w.r.t. interpreting the character.

Me, personally, I dig in deep to things (no pun intended, given my job) and if that were my job, I’d have been fighting making the character that way.

Makes me wonder why they needed such a contrast to Marion Ravenwood…did their little boy scrotums crawl up their spines after having a real actor creating a real character instead of an annoying cutout?

I wasn’t saying it was bad so much for the amoral characters, per se–they just didn’t help. It’s more the cartoony nature of the film that I mentioned earlier. Also, the insanely convoluted plot doesn’t help either. All in all, A:R makes Prometheus look like 2001: A Space Odyssey.

“Perhaps the greatest flaw of Imperial hubris was underestimating alien cultures as inferior. Perhaps this is no better seen in the battle of Endor. Imperial intelligence dismissed the indigenous Ewoks as primitive, stone-age beings. They never saw the extensive military tactics from centuries of ritual inter-tribal warfare. They treated the local megafauna as a separate threat, not an evolutionary pressure to which the locals had adapted to.

“When the Imperial forces landed, superior technology and surprise were on their side, but these were not insurmountable. The Ewoks understood the threat of the invaders, allowing the tribes to unite. Ambush tactics and scouting allowed these inquisitive creatures to understand their enemy, and locate their weaknesses. Small, costly attacks allowed them to test Imperial battle tactics. Traps designed for predatory beasts were repurposed for military hardware.

“Even the Rebels failed to understand the threat of the Ewoks. They would have met the fate of any other Stormtrooper patrol, had they not somehow convinced the Ewoks of their common enemy. By the time of the Rebel assault, the Ewok tribes were already well aware of Imperial weaknesses and movements, and were quickly able to realize that the Rebels were set to eliminate potential reinforcements.

“In battle, the Ewoks quickly overcame the Imperial technological advantage by retrieving the weapons of the fallen. Rebel propaganda likes to play up the primitive nature of the Ewoks, but every stormtrooper to fall supplied the Ewoks with another blaster. With the mechanized units neutralized by traps set up for the beasts they were brought to scare. The Ewoks now had superior military intelligence, terrain familiarity, and superior numbers. Many were killed in the ensuing battle, but even without Rebel intervention, the Ewoks still would have been victorious.

“It is fortunate for the Rebels that the destruction of the Death Star would cause devestation to Endor. I can think of few things more fearsome than such a cunning and warlike race, set free with access to galactic technology”

(That’s my headcanon, at least)

It can be a good thing, but it has to be done in the right tone. Slapstick isn’t one of those tones.

Actually, it’s simpler than that.

They made a movie called, “Highlander”–and they had a Frenchman play the highlander.

And then they cast the world’s most famous Scottish actor–as an Egyptian.

Really.

Major League II.

Take most of the characters from the timeless gem that is Major League, remove all traces of what made them entertaining to watch, amp up the racial stereotyping, and play out a tired, old story, and you will have a close approximation of the Major League II train wreck.

Rest assured, 99.9% of the blame for that steaming pile of stink rests squarely on the shoulders of the guys — Lucas, Spielberg, Kasdan — with the money and the *cough* vision. But, she’s in there, as are a lot of other people, Harrison Ford, too, could have spoken up about his character and wondered aloud (and forcefully) why Indy is attracted to this woman enough to let her get in the way when he was supposedly drawn to Marion. [Yeah, people will fuck anyone, often, but having more to do with them than that requires something more than momentary lust.]

Look, I was 18, had really, really loved Raiders of the Lost Ark, was enthralled with Marion. Because life is already hard enough, I strenuously avoided what I considered known quantities wrt movies and women that I was certain would have me pissed off. I got enough sexism in my day to day life, from men and women both and wasn’t willing to pay for it, too. At least with a book, I could shut it if it got too overwhelming and I also could get it out of a library, so I didn’t have to financially vote for Norman Mailer, for instance. (I haven’t watched the movie again…life is damn short and I can’t be bothered to waste that time. So, all of this gut reaction is my 18-year old self remembering how angry I was.) She let herself be part of that, I haven’t seen her play a role since that was an antidote nor publicly rip that role to shreds. It remains the most famous thing she’s ever done and she married the director. Eh, I’m not judging her person, I’m judging her career choices and skills.

Visuals get under one’s skin. Movies often stick with us in ways that even real life events don’t. That was a repulsive movie in so many ways especially considering what one might think one would get going into the theater based on the previous outing of Indiana Jones.

Escape from LA

I would totally agree, but AJ Langer is a very old friend of mine from grade school. So I can’t wish any project she worked on never existed.

Also, no movie with Bruce Campbell can be all bad.*

*That’s my personal variant on Roger Ebert’s “Walsh-Stanton Rule”: No movie featuring M. Emmet Walsh or Harry Dean Stanton can be all bad. Of course, he wrote that before he saw “Wild Wild West”.

The Neverending Story 2.
The second half of the book The Neverending Story (the first movie did a reasonably good job on the first half of the book) is a surprisingly compelling tale of the benefits and costs of escapism, the corrupting nature of power, and redemption through filial love. It had a profound and profoundly positive impact on my nine-year-old self.
The movie, which adapts small portions of a couple chapters before veering off into stupid-land, is bland, venial, and cliche. In particular, the choice to make Xayide the villain (where in the book the closest thing to a villain in the second half is Bastian himself) was jaw-droppingly stupid, and the whole thing with fear of diving unbelievably banal.
I won’t even get started on the third and fourth movie…

Blair Witch 2: Book of Shadows. Let’s make a movie about fans of a previous movie! Let’s completely throw out the “this is real” premise and found footage motif (admittedly, that can be overdone- are they up to four Paranormal Activities?). Let’s throw in a bunch of weird ass symbolism that doesn’t mean anything. Let’s revel in all the most obvious stereotypes of Wicca and show the creepy goth kids senselessly murdering people. Wait, the director also made those movies about the West Memphis Three? That seems a bit incongruous.

Hate to go so recent, but A Good Day to Die Hard.

Hey, “Wild Wild West” had Salma Hayek in a dancehall gown.

Caddyshack II and it’s not even close.

Batman & Robin. The ultimate nail in the coffin of one of my favorite childhood series–the original film sparked my rabid film fandom. (I wasn’t thrilled with Batman Forever, but it’s at least watchable).

+1 on Men in Black 2. That movie was a disaster that I wish I could unsee. (The only reason I saw it to begin with is because I was a camp counselor that needed to take my kids to SOME movie and we were in a really, really small town with limited choices…) And the first one is one of my favorite movies! I’m not a big fan of sequels in general, often because they undo resolutions of story and character arcs that are satisfying and/or make sense in favor of hauling back the same characters for another go. Men in Black 2 was particularly bad about this…

I know it’s not a popular opinion but I love Neverending Story 2. I watched both of them when I was a kid and loved both of them. And yes, Xayide’s roll was greatly expanded but they definitely kept in the theme of Bastian being consumed by his dark side. (And the Xayide of the book did legitimately play a role in coaxing him in that direction.) I also like that they introduced some themes in the book that the first film had pretty much neglected, like the effect of Bastian’s mother’s death on him and on his relationship with his father.

I’m not saying that it’s a great movie or even not-a-bad-movie but, the thing is, I don’t think the first one is very good either, objectively speaking. I actually don’t think it’s that great an adaptation of the first half of the book and there is so much about it that makes less sense when there isn’t the second part of Bastian actually travelling to Fantastica/Fantasia. I love both movies because I adored them in childhood (and never would have read the book at all if it hadn’t been for them) but that doesn’t mean I actually think they’re “good.” (Although I will concede that the first one is probably a little better than the second as far as story pacing etc.) The third one I never saw because it’s got nothing to do with the book at all, as far as I could tell. I didn’t even know there was a fourth one. Ugh.

There was talk a few years ago of a new adaptation of the book that would actually stick faithfully to the story–the whole story. I haven’t heard about it for a while though. I sure would love that to happen though.

Wait, Short Round is a redeeming quality? To me, he was always just one more reason why it sucked so bad, although he wasn’t nearly as bad as Kate Capshaw shrieking everywhere. Pretty amazing that the franchise came back so hard with “Last Crusade” which was actually really good. How often does that happen?

Oh God, I forgot about the Indians using voodoo dolls…

You notice that too, huh?

Totally and completely disagree. The Cloud City was nowhere not a big metropolis. The Special Editions to me are hard to watch.

Give a story space, exactly what the Bays and Bruckheimer don’t do.