I dunno what to say.
I hate Russell Davies, and I love him. Much as I hate the Doctor, and love him.
After that opening bit, which felt so anticlimactic — and after I spent a week with my stomach in knots — I felt this by the middle of the episode: that if I did not want to draw-and-quarter Davies by the end because he’d tortured us and jerked us around and been so mean to us, I would want to draw-and-quarter him for managing to pull this all off and not make me want to do that. If you see what I mean.
The end, for you-know-who… It’s so much more tragic than I had imagined it could be.
And the not-end, for the other you-know-how (on the beach with the new friend) … Also so much more tragic than I had ever anticipated.
This is the important thing that I ended the episode with: I half feared that however this turned out, I wouldn’t be able to enjoy Hamlet with David Tennant this fall. But that scene, the one that the image above is from, when the Doctor is angry and griefstricken and guilty and a total fucking mess? It made me realize that I will never, ever be able to hate Tennant, because he’s brilliant. Which I also saw in the other scenes, ahem, on the TARDIS with Donna. When he shows what a wonderful comic mimic he is. I simply love him — Tennant, I mean — and I can’t now imagine ever not loving him, and I’m ashamed that I ever thought I might not.
Oh, and then there’s this: As awful and heartbreaking as this all is — I was in tears by the end — again I can’t imagine how Davies got into my head and knew how my fan fiction was going, even the stuff I haven’t yet written. It’s spooky… because it’s going to be so easy to slot my new stories in around this. Which is weird. Someone tell him to get out of my brain.
(Feel free to spoil in the comments, and so don’t read the comments if you don’t want to have it all ruined for you. Oh, and I’ll continue my more in-depth Doctor Who blogging later this week, with “Midnight” when it airs on the Sci Fi Channel here in the U.S. this coming Friday, July 11.)
(Technorati tags: Doctor Who)
I was SOBBING at the end. Donna’s fate absolutely wrecked me. I just can’t think of anything worse. I mean, I know there’s a whole life-saving thing going on, but I’d rather just die than have everything that made my life have meaning be taken away like that.
Argh, now I’m thinking about it again and tearing up.
How horrible was that beach goodbye It was so pianful
I can’t watch it without crying
and then Donna…
but more importantly Wilf Bernard Cribbens who really brings it home what happens to her
I hate RTD, Billie Piper and most of all David Tennant
Sorry, RTD, but that was just an AWFUL thing to do to Donna! She deserved better … and I’m hoping that somehow she recovers her memories of her time with the Doctor (without the last bits, of course). Ha! Maybe Jenny will come along and rescue Donna’s memories – then they can go off together and have grand adventures!
At the beginning of the episode, Jack’s face. John Barrowman just showed what we all feel about that moment.
It was just wonderful – I loved the way that RTD lined all his ducks up in a row, and then imprisoned them in Dalek holding cells.I loved the way that the easy solutions were easily neutralised. I loved the way that the remaining get-out-of-jail-free card was so clearly signposted throughout the series, but hidden in plain sight. I loved the audacity of the climax (“that button there”). I was whooping and laughing and crying- the whole thing was just so much FUN and so THRILLING.
At the same time I found the Rose – Doctor ending somewhat chilling. Despite what the Dotor says to Rose it’s not his alter ego who looks like he needs mending – he seems very in touch with his emotions. Then again that’s just my very human perspective. He (after all) is supposed to be fire and ice and rage and wonderful.
I wouldn’t have tried to save Davros at the end, I would have tried to save Caan.
I love the part with everyone in the TARDIS flying it all together- how wonderful was that?! Now I want a new series with Rose and Doctor/2. I don’t want to just know they get their ‘happily ever after’, I want to see it! OK, I know, a series just about them would be completely boring… but still…
MaryAnn, this is my first comment posted. I LOVE your Dr Who blogs. I can’t wait to see your posts AFTER the episode airs.
You are making me crazy posting about episodes that have aired in the UK but have not aired on Sci-Fi yet. *Sigh* I just had to get that out.
i couldn’t sleep after seeing this episdoe! every time i closed my eyes, i saw the doctor’s devestated face as he was leaving rose with some “portion” of himself… and i agree, Les Carr, the half-doctor was not the one that needed care and attention. as for Donna — the doctor is a bastard! life alone is not enough — Donna wanted to be *living*! maybe she would have chosen to die (a theme running through some of *my* fan fiction — thanks lumps RTD and get the hell out of my head too, if you don’t mind!).
i love the line after the “regeneration” where the Doctor says, “Why would I change? I mean — look at me!”
one thing i am hoping came out of all this — please, please, PLEASE — no more Dalek stories! enough already! and let’s hope the Christmas episode does the same for the Cybermen…. new enemies and new planets, please!
AND, oh, can i just say, i am madly in love… madly, sadly, pathetically. David Tennant. and the Doctor. and DavidTennant/Doctor.
Couple thoughts on this episode
Names are obviously important in the Doctor’s world. Time Lords pick their own while at the same time the Doctor’s is a secret. What does it mean for the Doctor to have been so named by Davros?
The one who died. Everyone seems to be assuming that it meant Donna. I think the Child of Time that ‘dies’ is the Doctor clone who is doomed to a single life.
In a lot of ways, the Doctor really is a hypocrite when convenient. He isn’t a ‘nice’ person. Amazing and wonderful, but not not nice.
Finally, it occurred to me again just how amazingly high the body count is on this show. I don’t think there has been a single episode without at least a couple fatalities. Considering this is a family show, that’s quite something.
Oh, and the final scene, with Wilfred and the Doctor int he rain was the defining Doctor scene of the episode for me. The doctor standing in the rain saying he’s fine and leaving behind one more disciple who would do anything.
Chilling isn’t the word. What a terrible thing to do to Rose, leave her with a simulation of him. That other man is NOT the Doctor (he even LOOKS different!), and she knows it. And what about him? If he has the Doctor’s personality and the Doctor’s memories, how is he going to deal with staying in one place and one time? He’s going to be miserable — he’s going to end up a shell of a shadow of what the Doctor is.
No, he isn’t. Not at all.
MaryAnn this is far too depressing a perspective! It’s entirely possible that the Doctor and Rose will find a very happy equilibrium, and I’m certain that was (at least) the intent. It’s not like they could just get rid of him, right?
The regeneration was bogus, of course, but in the end I found that it didn’t matter as much as I’d expected. It was a fine episode, easily Davies’ best.
I found it interesting that of all the companions, of all the people that the Doctor has met over the four series, it’s Wilf that’s the one to ask the Doctor if he’s going to be alright. Everyone else swans off with their own lives but it’s lovely old Wilf that actually cares for the Doctor as a ‘person’. Maybe because he’s such an alien nut he was more accepting of the Doctor as a person.
And I know that RTD needed to wrap up Rose’s story quickly but did she have to kiss him? As has been said, this isn’t the Doctor she remembers (and since he’s “mortal”, is he going to be so willing to risk his life?) and looking and sounding like him isn’t enough. Maybe their relationship will last but this isn’t the man Rose fell in love with. The Doctor would never say that he loves her but Doctor 2 can and that’s a crucial difference. The Doctor is the lonely rebel that we can’t have. Doctor 2 is the nice guy that will never leave us and whilst that’s probably better for settling down with, that’s not the guy you love.
And please, Moffat, I beg of you; when you threaten to kill off a character, please have the decency to actually go through with it. I’ve had enough of RTD and his metaphoric deaths (although Donna’s is far more final than Rose’s).
Why was Torchwood left to sit it out?
Other than that? Cracking episode. Lots of great geeky moments, Catherine Tate finally winning me over completely and Daleks speaking German. What more could you need?
It’s the only one I can see.
A happy one? I doubt that. A mildly contented one that acknowledges that this is the best they can hope for? Maybe.
Actually, Rose’s greeting of the Doctor after he came out of the false regeneration is when she should have kissed *him.* How could she not? It seems to me that she did not react to her sudden reuniting with him as powerfully as I would have expected… and the Doctor seems actively suspicious of her through the rest of the episode — he’s pretty cold toward her. Could be that it’s just that their relationship is now broken beyond repair, and they both realize that, but then that’s something interesting — and depressing and miserable — too.
“of all the people that the Doctor has met over the four series, it’s Wilf that’s the one to ask the Doctor if he’s going to be alright”.
I hadn’t quite thought of that, but you are right. Lovely Wilf. What a beautiful scene by both of them. I hope that the Doctor will come back and get Wilf for a spin. Imagine the mischief the two of them can get into.
“Could be that it’s just that their relationship is now broken beyond repair, and they both realize that, but then that’s something interesting — and depressing and miserable — too.”
I think so. But isn’t that the way of the world? In Rose’s absence, the Doctor learned to move on. It looks like Rose didn’t. Whilst it was nice for the Doctor to have a fawning doe-eyed school girl to be crushed upon and worshipped, he had Donna to give him a kicking if he deserved it. And whilst adoration is awesome, it gets boring.
I think that any emotion the Doctor might feel towards Rose is over-ridden by the Doctor’s intellect. For him, Rose is a double edged sword. On the more personal side, it’s great to see her back but on the more universal scale, it’s terrible that she’s back, because it means something has gone horribly wrong. And the Doctor has to think of the Universe first. I wonder if the Doctor feels a pang of jealousy for his clone, he doesn’t have the weight of the universe on his shoulders?
I doubt it. To paraphrase Sarah Jane in school reunion, it’s worth the monsters.
“I hope that the Doctor will come back and get Wilf for a spin. Imagine the mischief the two of them can get into.”
Me too. But I doubt he’d risk the damage to Donna.
Poly, my thought exactly. Wilf would make an outstanding companion, as would have Mr. Copper from Voyage of the Damned. BTW, did you notice that the “Mr. Copper Foundation” was mentioned in Journey’s End as having funded something–I think it was the Osterhagen project?
“BTW, did you notice that the “Mr. Copper Foundation” was mentioned in Journey’s End as having funded something–I think it was the Osterhagen project?”
I thought it was the Subwave network.
Questions:
Doc 10.2 didn’t seem to get any say in his fate. Did that seem odd to anyone else? Do you suppose they had a private off-camera confab on the way to Bad Wolf Bay and he said, “Sure, I’m okay with being exiled to a parallel universe without a TARDIS where I have to live a human life, contrary to everything I am, just because I love Rose so much?” Or was it more of a sentence imposed by the real Doctor for 10.2’s supposed crime of genocide? (What the **** do you DO with an army of Daleks if you don’t kill them off? Send them all to prison?) And if it was a sentence, then why did 10.2 meekly accept it? Our Doc never would have, and 10.2 is the Doctor + Donna and you know THAT addition isn’t going to make him any meeker!
Why is it that a Time Lord/Human cross is sustainable while a Human/Time Lord one isn’t? And how does wiping Donna’s memories take away the fact that she has the Doctor’s mind now? Surely a mind is more than memories.
I too absolutely loved the “Oi, Space Boy!” “Oi, Earth Girl!” scene–not to mention Catherine Tate’s delivery of her “You’re naked!” line. Perfection. This was really her episode. Loved seeing her come into her own, terribly sad seeing her go back to her old self, but maybe that’s to leave a door open for her to come back. What if the memories start trickling back, not coming back in a flood and burning her up, but just enough that Wilf knows there’s trouble brewing, and sets out to contact the Doctor. The Doctor, meanwhile, has slapped himself on the forehead at some point and said, “I didn’t have to wipe her memories, I could have just done [whatever] and she would have been fine.” Maybe an off-on switch of some sort for the Time Lord consciousness in her? So she’s just Donna most of the time, but in a crisis she can call on the Doctor’s mind for help? With the caveat that if she stays in “on” for too long or does it too often she’ll burn up her synapses?
What a great show. Thanks for giving me a place to talk about it with fellow obsessees, MaryAnn!
Martin said:
Thanks, Martin, that sounds right. I’ve only watched it twice and didn’t focus on that part.
“Doc 10.2 didn’t seem to get any say in his fate. Did that seem odd to anyone else? Do you suppose they had a private off-camera confab on the way to Bad Wolf Bay and he said, “Sure, I’m okay with being exiled to a parallel universe without a TARDIS where I have to live a human life, contrary to everything I am, just because I love Rose so much?” Or was it more of a sentence imposed by the real Doctor for 10.2’s supposed crime of genocide? (What the **** do you DO with an army of Daleks if you don’t kill them off? Send them all to prison?) And if it was a sentence, then why did 10.2 meekly accept it? Our Doc never would have, and 10.2 is the Doctor + Donna and you know THAT addition isn’t going to make him any meeker!”
Because there’s a part of the Doctor that wants to stay with Rose?
But that is also an interesting point, not only is this a ‘mortal’ Doctor, he’s also a Doctor that has a little bit of Donna in him. Is Rose going to like this new flavour?
“Why is it that a Time Lord/Human cross is sustainable while a Human/Time Lord one isn’t? And how does wiping Donna’s memories take away the fact that she has the Doctor’s mind now? Surely a mind is more than memories.”
I assume that it’s easier for a God to become Human than it is for a Human to become God.
If Donna can’t remember the fact that she’s part Time Lord, she can never access that part of her brain.
But you never know…
“Thanks, Martin, that sounds right. I’ve only watched it twice and didn’t focus on that part.”
No problem. There’s a lot to keep track of in the last two episodes.
One more thing (sorry)–
I’d have preferred it if they had explained the partial regeneration without making the Doctor sound so vain. I mean, the last time he regenerated he nearly didn’t make it (was down to one heart working) so it probably isn’t something he looks forward to doing again. Especially if he doesn’t have a cuppa tea handy. And he really didn’t have time to deal with regeneration shock when the fate of the universe was on his shoulders, did he? So, he may have tossed it off with a flip, “Why change? Look at me!” to treat the fans, but there really were better reasons not to go through the full process. Not to mention it sets up the rest of the story and the ultimate saving of all of reality. (Hmm, you suppose unreality was at risk too?)
Martin said:
Well, he’s lived there a long time. There’s bound to be the odd shed skin cell or hair around unless he’s an immaculate TARDIS-keeper. How much regeneration energy could be siphoned off into them is a question though. :-)
One thing that nobody has commented on so far is the parallel of Rose/10.5 with Jackie and alt.Pete. Both Jackie and Pete seemed to take the attitude “what the hell – close enough” and perhaps the Doctor expected Rose to react the same. But then, Jackie and Pete made their own choices while Rose pretty much had 10.5 foisted on her…
Jackie and Pete aren’t quite the same thing. Jackie’s new Pete is an alternate version of Pete, but he’s still essentially Pete. This clone Doctor is not merely an “alternate” Doctor: he’s fundamentally different, what with being half(ish) human — or at least half(ish) Donna — and all. Just the fact, alone, that the clone Doctor doesn’t even appear to protest his being dumped on an alternate Earth, condemned to remain there for the rest of his natural (if short) life, suggests that he’s *very* different from the Doctor indeed.
Delighted. Though it’s mostly merely that I cannot keep my mouth shut about it.
Yes, exactly. As Donna said in “The Doctor’s Daughter,” he talks all the time but he never really *says* anything, certainly nothing about himself and how he really feels about anything.
“He isn’t a ‘nice’ person.”
Having seen Tennant in a few things, I think his instincts are, given half a chance by the script, not to play nice. And because he is very likeable on screen, he can make his Doctor strange, aloof, a bit cold, a bit callous, without losing the audience. It makes for such a rich portrayal.
On a lighter note, the Daleks speaking German reminded me of this Bill Bailey sketch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfMVFp-SAlQ
Exterminez-vous! Exterminez-vous encore!
The Daleks speaking German just seemed natural to me, since they’ve always been little tin Nazis.
“The Daleks speaking German just seemed natural to me, since they’ve always been little tin Nazis.”
I find it very considerate of an invading fleet to be multi-lingual.
Can anyone tell me the significance of Germany? Everything else seemed to be a reference to something so why Germany?
After this episode I now have some hope for the next Torchwood, that is if Mikey joins up.
I found Donna’s fate profoundly disturbing, but perfect in terms of drama.
Like the Ninth Doctor, his arc creates a perfect ending for itself with his regeneration, and, although I would have adored another year of Christopher Eccleson, it was right and fitting that the Doctor had to sacrifice himself to save Rose.
For Donna, after becoming the most important human in the universe, it becomes impossible for her to sustain the energy if the Time Lord brain. She must forget, in order to live. But WE (and the Doctor) remember and that creates the tragedy. It’s a tragedy of unfulfilled potential. Simply having her die would have been terribly sad; continuing her life with no memory of her courage and ability elevates her to a tragic heroine.
And because of this incredible tragedy, we mourn what she was and could have continued to be. So Donna becomes one of the most significant companions in the Doctor’s long life.
I actually loved/hated that RTD did this… it certainly wasn’t the easy choice (unlike 10.2/Rose).
A nice doctor?
I suppose that in the (Journey’s) end, both Donna and Rose found out that you can’t squeeze a timelord into the capacity of a human. A doctor who is able to love Rose to the exclusion of the universe is not the wonderful, wild, fire and ice doctor that we fell in love with. And a timelord in human form can only live by forgetting what (s)he fully is.
Christopher Ecclestone’s doctor said that he didn’t “do domestic”. Rose pulled him in that direction, Martha wanted to but couldn’t and Donna didn’t want to try. In the end, Rose couldn’t live without demanding it, which separated them more completely than the parallel universes had. And when he left her on the beach HE DIDN’T TURN BACK.
So, what kind of companion they will RTD give him now? Or will he be alone for the specials until Moffat takes over?
It would be fun if they experimented with some unusual companions for the specials. Something like that little red spikey cyborg from Voyage of the Damned, for example. (Sorry, I forget his name–and I know that would have ticked him off royally.) Or an older companion, as suggested above. Only problem with that is all the running companions have to do! But, the Doctor made Queen Victoria hustle around, so he could manage to get an older companion moving. Maybe a sonic walker? Hang on to the bar and….wheee!!! You’re flying! LOL
I get the feeling that 10.5 felt that he was in a bit of a tricky situation. It was interesting to see his initial disgust (horror even?) at discovering that he wasn’t a full Timelord, but had the memories and knowledge of his Timlord self and that was the point when he went into motormouth mode, covering up his real feelings with spouts of words and activity.
10.5 knows better than anybody the capabilities of a full Timelord and knew what the Doctor could choose to do to a half-human version of himself. Looks to me that he took his one chance and worked out that it was better than the likely alternatives and besides he was now capable of trying a relationship with a human and given his knowledge would probably shortly be able to get some way of exploring this new Universe in his now-limited lifespan.
I see another Dave has joined us. I knew this would happen one day, so from now on I’ll be signing in as Proper Dave.
Thinking over a nice cup of tea (a cup of tea can be nice, but never The Doctor) I realise that we have seen the Doctor “doing domestic” while being human and timelordnessless as John Smith in Human Nature/Family of Blood.
We have also seen evidence of him falling in love as a timelord (in the future, with River Song), but their relationship hardly seems to have been characterized by settling down and taking out a mortgage.
But it wasn’t Donna’s “death” that Dalek Caan foretold, it was his own… Dalek Caan was the “most loyal of companions” He helped the Doctor to destroy the Daleks. He has always been there to guide the Doctor and Donna to this point.
Oooooh, Ken. Brilliant.
Why, when the Doctor took Donna home, did he end up crumpled on the front step, looking up at Wilf, saying “Help me?”
The Doc may be skinny, but he’s strong. He carried Martha Jones through the hospital on the moon when he’d just been bled out by a vampire and had no oxygen to breathe, to boot. Donna may have a few pounds on Martha, but the Doctor was not operating under any physical handicap this time so you’d think he’d turn up at the door with her in his capable arms. He’d gotten her from the TARDIS to the front door on his own, after all.
Were they just going for the pathos of him looking up at Wilf with cocker-spaniel eyes? Or was the Doc perhaps not as fully recovered from the Dalek blast as he wanted us to think, possibly due to regeneration interruptus? Or was he just crushed by the weight of his sorrow at what had happened to Donna and the knowledge that he had lost his most perfect travelling companion–a half human/half Time Lady?
Personally, I loved Donna saying “Ohh yes.” Perfect mimicry.
The beach scene left me a total mess. On the surface it seems like we’re almost meant to take it as good news, and the music swells when Rose kisses the half-human Doctor, but the cuts back to the real Doctor’s face absolutely destroyed me. David Tennant might be the most expressive actor on the planet.
There’s a whole lot to that scene – on some level, I think the Doctor’s imagining a different life entirely, vicariously through this look-alike, and it’s touching to think that if he only had one life and none of his issues he’d want to spend it with Rose. But it’s also amazing how everything (the editing, the acting, the emphasis) made you sort of ignore the Doctor clone. That scene was about the Doctor, the proper Doctor, and it was brutal.
(p.s. MaryAnn, love your blogging!)
If he has the Doctor’s personality and the Doctor’s memories, how is he going to deal with staying in one place and one time? He’s going to be miserable — he’s going to end up a shell of a shadow of what the Doctor is.
Ask #3
This doesn’t fit this thread but I don’t know where it does fit and this is the most active thread so I’m putting it here. Hope that’s okay.
For anyone who gets BBC America, The Graham Norton Show with David Tennant airs at 3 AM on July 8. If you haven’t see this, you should. Hilarious! And Saturday, July 12 at 10 PM Catherine Tate is his guest. That one is new so can’t vouch for it but I’m sure it will be worth watching.
I had previously thought that the worst thing that could have happened to Donna was that she experienced something so awful at the Doctor’s side that she would voluntarily chose to leave him, hence discovering that there was, in fact, something that could make her choose not to travel with him forever.
I was wrong. The fate RTD concocted for her is worse.
But didn’t we always know that?
Yes, it was that.
I loved this season finale, really did.
And I hope I’m not being blasphemous…but I don’t like the Doctor as God thing they did all over the last season finale…that was too much. I want my doctor to be a Time Lord, not Jesus.
So I loved it that this season finale didn’t have any of that.
And I need to just say (after having watched the entire season over the course of two days) Catherine Tate is a really, really fine actor…and I wasn’t expecting that. I love her comedy (Lauren Cooper ftw)…but her drama is mighty fine indeed. I hope she gets some more meaty work.
Well, this episode certainly was interesting, wasn’t it? (Understatement of the year.)
NOT SPOILERS
Donna: Well, at least they didn’t kill her off for cheap emotional effect, which was my major fear. And yay, she got to save the universe even if she doesn’t remember it.
Davros: Yes, RTD, I just love it when mad villains who have just announced their intentions to murder almost every known being in the universe choose to lecture the Doctor on morality.
Jackie: Like her daughter, she too is saving the Earth from the scum of the universe.
* Cue Danny Elfman theme. *
Mickey: Well, they put off the eventual hookup between him and Martha as long as possible but they just had to go there, right?
Rose: Actually she got a pretty happy ending compared to Donna. But she didn’t get to save the universe, oh darn!
Jack: Well, I must admit I didn’t really care what happened to him…;-)
I just wanted to second something you’re pointing out, and which most people haven’t quite gotten, about how good Tennant is.
I just caught him, accidentally, channel flipping and happening upon his work as Barty Crouch Jr in the Harry Potter movie. He had, what, three minutes of screen time? And you remember him vividly as a nasty, lizardy bastard.
I’ve heard a lots of folks be dismissive of him, and comparing him unfavorably to Chris Eccleston, but I don’t think they’re paying close enough attention.
I envy you getting to see him in Hamlet. Blog about it, okay?