FlickFilosopher.com

Oh, the semen jokes are, of course, de rigueur and copious, but Superbad achieves a new low in gross-out humor: an extended menstrual-blood “joke.”

Unless it is even more extended than what I can imagine, this was not a new low. Jenny McCarthy explored this territory in her dark gross-out comedy, Dirty Love. In Dirty Love there an extended joke about her having to buy tampons and pads because they were out at her apartment. And, I mean extended.

this review is superbad i disagree with everything you said
this movie is all about teenage male humor and coming of age. Since the reviewer is a female she would know nothing about it unless of course she is a dude. How can you give movies like stardust a good review and crap all over this moive and knocked up

I can imagine that this movie will be quite offensive to a lot of people, but it will make money and thats all that really matters for a movie.

Dear Post-Feminist Alcoholics,

I think it's time to put down the wine and recognize that not everyone is an uptight middle-aged woman. I know it's hard to realize that their is different world out there, a world that consists of penises as well as vaginas, but within this world men often act immaturely and juvenile. Men are slobs, and we do think about sex, a lot (in fact I'm touching myself right now). Women have to understand that they will never comprehend what it is like to be an adolescent male. If the juvenile behavior in "Superbad" upset you, god forbid you ever peek into the real lives of men. I don't care if you are the mother of 5 boys and you swear every single one of them is a saint, I assure you one of your boys is probably circle jerking with his friends. We are crude and rude, that is what makes us adolescent, and I have news for you, it doesn't end at 13 or 25 or 55. Men are men, and we act immature around one another because it relieves the stress of dealing with uptight broads that have nothing better to do than piss and moan about how we fail to live up to their freaking standards.

Love you,

Benji

Men think about sex, and while some act with authenticity others expend much energy dealing
with feelings impotence. Where women who suffer
anxieties about attractiveness go shopping, men
feeling impotent make war or 'green-light'
stupid movies.

Wow, I dont even see what you saw wrong with the movie, all I see is that you dont get the idea that sometimes it's fun to be crude. I dont know what you see when you see a Judd Apatow movie or in this case a movie written by a Judd Apatow apprentice, but as a male in his mid 20's I can say that the humor in this movie, as well as Knock Up, hits a chord with the average American male. Truth is most of us were the shy geeks in high school and we wanted what these two characters wanted, popularity and a chance with a beatiful girl. Others of us can relate to Knocked Up's characters as I have seen both, men who knock up women they should never have a chance with and men who marry the wrong woman just because they knocked them up. I feel in both movies though, the one thing that gets us is that these characters feel somewhat real. Maybe not their experinces but the characters themself are closer to the real thing than most directors seem to be able to conjure up in films each year. But what can I say you apparently still find Mr. Bean funny, hate Ryan Gosling, think i shouldnt see Live Free or Die Hard in the theater and found the worst reviewed Eric Bana movie (29% fresh) to be a cant miss flick.

Dear Benjamin,
Read the review again. MaryAnn knows that some men can be immature slobs. She knows that adolescent boys and girls are horny. It's just that this movie holds up the adolescent mindset as if it was the final frontier of mental development, and you seem to agree.

But I have some shocking news for you, adolescence ends for a lot of men. It ended for me and my friends in our early twenties (a little late, I know). There's nothing wrong with occasionally acting silly or joking around with your buddies, but this is a movie ONLY about being a horny teenager written by horny teenagers, and as the review clearly states, the only way to enjoy it is to either be a teenager yourself or somehow forget that you have already solved all of the confounding mysteries of sexuality that the film holds up like profound bits of timeless wisdom.

Speaking of mysteries, I don't pretend to speak for all men as you do, but I had no idea what a circle jerk was until I was well out of college. I know a lot of men AND women who are someitmes "crude and rude," and they are definitely not adolescents. Conversely, my friends and I were rarely crude and rude when we were hanging out as teens, although I admit that we seeemed to be exceptions.

As for "uptight broads," you should be thankful that a woman actually cares about you enough to hold you up to any standards. If you honestly feel those standards are unrealistic, how about, you know, actually having a conversation about it with her instead of bottling it up and then letting off steam by letting your inner adolescent take over? You might discover that she has a point and that it's time to finally grow up, a process that you and Mr. Rogan seem to have avoided for a long time.

I have a bad feeling this comment section is going to get even hairier than the Knocked Up one! MaryAnne, put on your absestose suit!! I am concerned for you!

"are supposed to be funny but instead serve as evidence that some legal adults who are male aren’t, in fact, men."

Can't it be both?

I stand by my snap-judgment that Superbad looks great and I'm going to love it. However, I will note that I saw the R-rated trailer for Superbad last night, and it made it seem both more funny ("Oh shit, the cops!") and less funny (bad words are hilarious, apparently).

Clearly, the reviewer doesn't know sh!t.

You're shrill.

P.S. What exactly does your hallowed real manliness consist of?

MaryAnn, you're ready for your e-mail to turn into a river of flame yet again, right? ;-)

Interesting how some feel the need to defend so heatedly and crudely the most boring and ignorant characteristics boys and men can possess. Men need to give themselves more credit and not waste so much of their energy watching and defending movies that put them in the worst light.

It's okay to not like this movie, but this reviewer's reasons make me think she's not fit to be a film critic. I'm going to guess that she loved the movie "Crash", where the intentions where spelled out and the viewer was beaten over the head with the message.

People, these are high school kids. Of COURSE they're crude! Believe me when I tell you that kids in high school talk like this. They're not mature enough to truly understand love and sex. They've never experienced it, so how could they?

Don't make the mistake of thinking that just because the characters aren't mature, that the movie isn't either. You need to differentiate the two before you can truly appreciate it. The jokes don't need to be subtle in order for the movie to be. Just like the previous Apatow pictures, you have truly missed the boat...

I know it's wrong, but I love these comment threads sooo much. You know those scenes in corny kung fu movies from the 70's where dozens of badguys show up at the heroine's (usually Cheng Pei Pei) hometown and they attack one at a time only to be defeated almost effortlessly? I always get a big goofy smile when I watch those scenes. Anyway, these threads are analogous, and MA is the kung fu master of the written word.

Look, there is no reason to attack this reviewer's personality or her opinion of men. She obviously has respect for both men and women and she said nothing particularly offensive. In fact, she has some very valid points about the contradictions inherent in our culture vis a vis sexuality and love. On the other hand, perhaps she could loosen up a bit. It sounds like this movie is much more along the lines of Porky’s than it is of Dazed and Confused. So be it.

Look, there is no reason to attack this reviewer's personality or her opinion of men. She obviously has respect for both men and women and she said nothing particularly offensive. In fact, she has some very valid points about the contradictions inherent in our culture vis a vis sexuality and love. On the other hand, perhaps she could loosen up a bit. It sounds like this movie is much more along the lines of Porky’s than it is of Dazed and Confused. So be it.

"People, these are high school kids. Of COURSE they're crude! Believe me when I tell you that kids in high school talk like this. They're not mature enough to truly understand love and sex. They've never experienced it, so how could they?"

I think the point is far less /that/, and far more that it takes what they are, and celebrates it not only as the way for teenagers to be (which is bad enough), but then goes on to say that it's somewhat preferable /to/ "growing up".

As a 21 year old straight guy, I think the "horny teen sex comedy" genre has been monopolized by horny guys for too long. I'm actually wondering what would be the female equilvalent of this? Think about it...when was the last time a movie came out that delt with the female perspective of being horny and yearning for that first sexual experience?

I haven't seen Superbad yet but i can tell i'm gonna like it just like i did the other two Apatow's movies. I just find it sad that women can't find movies liek this that they can relate to as well as guys do. :(

Seems like there a new trend emerging.
Apatow makes a comedy that gets 90%+ on rottentomatoes which MaryAnne hates which gets her 200+ comments.

I look forward to this again in The Pineapple Express in '08.

I like how the commenters seem convinced that women just can't understand men and why this would be funny, and then berate MaryAnne for not transcending the perspective they have forced upon her.

Oh, and another thing: I don't buy that for a second.

I'm a guy, and can relate to women, and can have women relate to me. Superbad and Knocked Up and even the 40 Year-Old Virign do nothing but make the line between genders as big as they possibly can.

Yet, when MaryAnne claims in a review that women are NOT, in fact, some secretive coven that meets once a week to decide how best to aggravate the men they love to be oppressed by, or that the sexual development of all men can't be universally covered over two hours of cum jokes and boob shots, the men who pity her alleged ignorance lash out.

Wow... soccer mom rage is strong with you. This is exactly what it was like to be an 18 year old senior male about to graduate high school. Every other film you mentioned presented a grossly idealized high school experience. There was no connection. I'm sorry highschool was a painful experience for you. But that's what it was for many of us, and I personally like it when a movie connects with me. When a movie is accessible. Pretension isn't a luxury people with real lives get to have. So go have fun at your planned community association meeting, clicking your tongues at the new family who painted their door that GODAWFUL color of brown. I hope that stick works it's way out of your rectum.

MaryAnn,

In general, my tastes agree with yours on the geek movies, not so much on the chick flicks. For all the Seth Rogen movies, your reviews seem to be exclusively from the "chick" side; however, Seth seems mighty geeky to me. Perhaps there is a difference between the way guy geeks and girl geeks deal with geekitude. For the guys, there is an indivisible part of geekiness that is about rejection by the opposite sex, and movies that recognize that help with the pain of being considered undateable due to enjoying sci-fi. Perhaps the real men you know aren't real geeks - do they wear Klingon ears in public?

Dear Amanohyo,

Firstly, I must apologize to Maryann for making a heated and unnecessary attack at her review of Superbad. My response was a bit callous and tactless, however, I still stand by its underlying message.

In your response to my first post you argued that this movie "holds up the adolescent mindset as if it was the final frontier of mental development." While Superbad certainly highlights the adolescent mindset, I don't think it has the intention or depth to argue that male adolescence is the be all and end all. I am well aware that I am contradicting my first post, chalk that up to heat of the moment frustration, but we have to consider the fact that Apatow produces, writes and directs movies that highlight and exaggerate the awkward moments in male adolescence. This is a movie that follows TWO BOYS in HIGH SCHOOL, a place where awkwardness and immaturity are found around every corner. Assuming Rogen and Apatow embarked upon the same film and eliminated the language and sexual immaturity, we can safely assume the film would flop. The reason these films are popular is not due to the fact that they highlight fart jokes and strong language, but because Rogen and Apatow found a way to exaggerate and display the awkward and uncomfortable moments’ men AND WOMEN experience while growing up. Both Apatow and Rogen found formula for comedy that resonates heavily with us all, whether we are adolescent or just reminiscing about our own adolescence. My hope is that everyone takes the time to sit down and watch this movie and remember what it was like to be a kid, if only for two hours.

Love You,

Benji

if you use "shan't" in a review of any non-self-proclaimed art film, your review becomes immediately discredited.

MA isn't the only reviewer being attacked for her Superbad review. Slate's reviewer is being raked over the coals and her review was much more positive. Very interesting how some men are freaking out over any criticism of the Apatow crew.

http://fray.slate.com/discuss/forums/3184/ShowForum.aspx?ArticleID=2172339

Admit it MaryAnne, you already decided that "Superbad" was going to be a "Skip It" film long before you sat down in the theater. In fact, you could have written this review a month ago without actually having seen the film and it would probably have been the same. Word for word.

I fear this is goodbye, MAJ.

Our tastes have been diverging for at least a year or more, and I just can't seem to agree with your opinions. It's not just the recent Apataw-fueled productions, but other flicks as well.

Don't bother seeing the classic "Kentucky Fried Movie"; you'd probably be disappointed with it's juvenile humor.

Wow, bitter really suits you.

Oh, all these little boys trying to "let you in" on this boy's club. Speaking as someone who has been a nerd or a geek all his life, I can tell you that this movie is IN NO WAY representative of my teenage experience, or that of any single person I was friends with. You know who did act like the kids in this movie when I was growing up? The jocks. That's it. In related news, MaryAnn, you are my personal hero for having the ability to deal so gracefully with such overpowering stupidity.

Admit it MaryAnne, you already decided that "Superbad" was going to be a "Skip It" film long before you sat down in the theater. In fact, you could have written this review a month ago without actually having seen the film and it would probably have been the same. Word for word.

Fuckin' A.

MA,
What is your idea of a "real man"?

I'm a 25 year old high school teacher who saw this movie along with a 24 year old police officer, a 25 year old EMT worker and a 28 year old computer technician. Guess what? We all laughed our asses off the entire time! Get that stick out of tight, pruney ass and get over it - everyone has different tastes in comedy. Quit being so condescending and calm down. Just because someone liked this movie doesn't mean you're better than them. Not everyone goes to cheese tasting parties once we hit our 20s and 30s. Some of us still enjoy a good dick and fart joke.

"Get that stick out of [your] tight, pruney ass and get over it - everyone has different tastes in comedy... Quit being so condescending and calm down."

Oh the irony.

You shouldn't pidgeonhole cheese-tasting parties either. My mother in law got drunk at one and told some hilarious dick and fart jokes... well, hilarious if you're drunk and full of cheese. They were at least as funny as the ones in this movie.

What I find particularly interesting is that most of the comments here—not all, but most—that are well written and somewhat analytical seem to agree with the review, while those that disagree tend to be some variation on the simplistic "I liked it. You suck." One must wonder whether the latter group even bothered to read the review, or if the most that they could comprehend was the "Skip it" icon.

From the review:

Movies about horny teenagers? Fine. Being a horny teenager is a human experience common to everyone, male and female alike.

See? MaryAnn is not issuing a blanket condemnation of movies about teen sexuality. And while the characters and dialogue may be a more or less accurate representation of teen life:

I know that boys trash-talk like this, cluelessly pondering those great mysteries of women’s bodies, and of adult life in general. What is disturbing in the extreme about this -- about the entirety of Superbad, particularly in the fact that is being marketed to adults -- is that it suggests that these mysteries have yet to be solved, or even broached, by anyone involved in making this movie, and must be unbroached by the audience, as well, for maximum enjoyment. Or, indeed, at enjoyment at all.

Or, to keep it simple for the humanoids, it's not the content that's the problem as much as it is the attitude towards the content (the same concept people didn't seem to grab when commenting on the Knocked Up review).

I think a lot of people are angry that MaryAnne suggested that only the immature or "those eternally 13" could possibly enjoy this movie. Humour is probably the most subjective emotion that a film hopes to enduce, i.e. what's funny to me might be horrifying to you.

It might have been better if MaryAnne said something like, "You'll like this if you liked the other two Apatow films, or if your a male college student or in high school..." instead of saying only the "infantile minded" will like it.

Take a look at all the "adult, well adjusted and sensible" critics who praise it on rottentomatoes.com just like they did "Virgin" and "knocked Up". And if they liked it, imagine how the general audience will respond. This flick will easily pass the $100 mill mark like its siblings.
DVDs of it will fly of the shelfs and its gonna become a cult classic quoted non-stop like Anchorman.

You may be right and everyone might be wrong. There's no way to prove it. But when it comes to these 3 films MaryAnne, your opinions are held by a very tiny minority.

I don't think you were wrong to write the review nor necessarily unfair in your criticism or whatever. I read the review, I scanned the comments. Here is my question, hopefully it doesn't get ignored or blown off: you say that it's bad that American culture embraces "not-smart" and "not-sophisticated". Okay, so it's bad, but I don't think that's a legitimate thing to hold against the movie, really. In doing that you're suggesting that movies should not be those things, but certainly there must be SOME examples of crude comedy in the history of film that are acceptable. And additionally you say in the same paragraph that you will allow some bullshit in an action movie, but what are lunkheaded action movies besides "not-smart" and "not-sophisticated"? Just curious.

The key to understanding the Flick Filosopher is knowing that she hates it -- just absolutely hates it -- when losers hook up with hotties. You see it with Knocked Up, Hitch, even, bizarrely, The Apartment. She sees it as a bullshit male fantasy about how the girls secretly want them the way they are even though they're repulsive, that they get girls without earning them or coming close to matching them personality-wise. I understand where she's coming from. (Don't agree on The Apartment, though.)

There's not much of a counterpart for women. There's stuff like Bridget Jones's Diary, I guess, but Bridget Jones wasn't exactly a hideous social pariah. The only one I can think of is Hairspray, which hit a similar trigger of disgust and disbelief for me (this applies more to the '88 original than the charming musical version, which had a much cooler Tracy Turnblad).

If you think that this one teenage comedy movie is proof that American culture is all messed up, then you are over-thinking this way too much. It's a vulgar comedy meant to make you laugh, not think. With the hundreds of movies being released in the U.S. annually, don't you think it's ok to have a handful of silly gross-out comedies in the mix?
(Plus, the script was written by Rogen & Goldberg, two Jewish teenagers growing up in Canada, so shouldn't the criticism be directed at our neighbors to the north or the Jewish people? I'm just trying to be funny here so please don't accuse me of being anti-semitic.)

I saw the movie yesterday & enjoyed it. 3.5 stars out of 4-- not an instant classic but it's a funny movie, especially the side story with McLovin & the 2 cops.

A couple of thoughts (some spoilers):
- When was the last time you saw a movie in which two heterosexual male friends honestly told each other "I love you" like Evan & Seth did? And if the writers & directors wanted to sink to the lowest level of humor, they would've cut to Evan & Seth spooning each other in the morning-- but they didn't. Sure, they had an awkward moment designed to get a chuckle & then they got past it & went to the mall together.
- For all of the filth about women coming out of their mouths, Evan & Seth (like most boys/men) were all talk. Face to face with Becca & Jules, they were completely respectful & awkwardly unsure of themselves. That's how men act! With each other, we talk a big game but we all know that women rule the world. And for the record, it was Becca who attacked Evan, not vice versa.
- If this film really wanted to be low-brow & degrading toward women (Porkys-esque), why is there absolutely NO NUDITY in it??? Not even when the cops bust in on McLovin & his girl jumps out of bed & runs off. Maybe I should ask for my money back. (Funniest line of the movie-- "Why did you just cockblock McLovin?!")
- Mary Ann criticized the "extended menstrual blood joke" but never mentioned the very-extended (no pun intended) "kid with a dick-drawing addiction". As a man, I guess I should be offended by that!!!

One more thing-- along with Superbad, I caught The Bourne Ultimatum (ranked 13th best on Mary Ann's 2007 list) too.

Let's talk smart & sophisticated-- I don't think so. It's the same damn movie for the 3rd time!
We get it already-- the bad guys at the CIA brainwashed him & will kill anyone to silence him now. So let's piece together some action scenes in some far-off cities, show that Bourne is a good guy because he lets some of those bad guys live & then rake in another $100 million+. Oh, & don't forget to jiggle the camera around too in order to be artistic!

Heck, even Matt Damon half-jokingly referred to a possible 4th movie in the series as "The Bourne Redundancy" on The Daily Show. He nailed it with that comment.

Thankfully, I paid to see Superbad & then slipped in to see Bourne so they didn't get a dime from me.

I might disagree with you on this movie (I'm only going by what my daughter tells me about it), but I'll defend your right to say it. Keep writing entertaining, creative reviews that aren't predictable, and I'll keep reading you first.

MaryAnn,

Your reviews are like Biblical Archeology: You go into a movie with your opinions already set firmly in place and then merely look for evidence (however thin) to support your pre-established opinions while ignoring evidence to the contrary.

"It is autobiographical, I suspect, inspired not just by the lives of co-writers Seth Rogen and Evan Goldberg, who named the two leads after themselves, but possibly by millions of other teenagers."

-Roger Ebert in his review of "Superbad"

I, too, suspect that it is autobiographical. That said, would you give the film version of "The Diary of Anne Frank a "skip it" because it casts Germans in a poor light?

Giles I, too, suspect that it is autobiographical. That said, would you give the film version of "The Diary of Anne Frank" a "skip it" because it casts Germans in a poor light?

Does this officially Godwin this thread?

Your analogy, of course, is ridiculous. If you want a more accurate analogy, you should have said:

Would you give the film version of "The Diary of Anne Frank" a "skip it" if it celebrated the actions of the Germans?

And I think we can all agree that such a film shouldn't get our entertainment dollars.

I find it interesting that you are being criticized by people who take for granted the same gender essentialism that you openly dismiss: namely that men and women are completely different animals, that there is an abyss between male and female experience, and that there is no way one gender can ever understand the other (let alone criticize it!) All we poor women can do to understand the glory that it is to be man is sit back in awed silence while the parade of dick and fart jokes that make up The Eternal Masculine runs before our eyes, and clap at the end (but not too loudly; it wouldn't do for us to look like we are "appropriating" the message.)

That's why I stopped watching gross-out comedies. I tried for a while, in order to be cool and one-of-the-guys, but I didn't feel welcome. Almost all of these movies tell us girls not to take them personally, "because it's not about you - it's about the guys," and yet we are criticized and told we don't have a sense of humour because we happen to feel excluded. If there was a female equivalent to the fratboy coming-of-age-through-gross-out comedy, that might not be so bad, but no one is interested in the female rite of passage except as a tool for promoting the latest fashion trends (see Bratz).

As for the people who ask what a "real man" should be like: a real man shouldn't need to view himself as belonging to a completely different species of humanity than women in order to feel comfortable with himself and his sexuality. In general, one might also say that any attempt to define what it is to be a man according to some abstract platonic archetype (in this case, the caveman) is a sign of insecurity at best and crass sexism at worst.

Thank you, Mary Ann, for refusing to jump onto the regressive bandwagon that's represented by Apatow et al.'s fratboy comedies. It's nice to see that there are still a few sane and socially-conscious voices out there in the midst of the current anti-feminist backlash.

(By the way, I'm French, and must apologize for any spelling or grammar mistakes.)

"I, too, suspect that it is autobiographical. That said, would you give the film version of "The Diary of Anne Frank a "skip it" because it casts Germans in a poor light?"

Wow... that might just be the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

On another note, why do so many people rely on ad hominems in arguing movies like this. As in, "Shut up, you stupid feminist bitch, I liked it!" If you liked it so much, why are you so threatened that someone else didn't? Or, even better, as someone posted above, "We all have different tastes, so stop criticizing people who disagree with you!" The people saying this fail to realize that they are criticizing someone who disagrees with them.

You know, there is a mature way to handle not agreeing with a reviewer and an immature way of doing it. I feel I've done it the right way; informed her that though I used to agree with her opinions, I don't any longer, and be done with it.

I do not see the need pointlessly bash the opinion to which she is entitled and call her various names.

It's HER review with HER opinion on ... HER website.

Don't like it? Don't browse here.

But JoshDM, don't you see? For the most part, these aren't people who browse here regularly. When you're at a party ordering pizza, and everyone says that pepperoni is good, but one person says they don't like pepperoni, or even that they are *gasp* a vegetarian, sometimes one or two of people will blurt out "How can anyone not like pepperoni?!"

Nonconformity, no matter how reasonable, knaws at their very soul until they cannot resist it any longer and must rush over and confront the vile infidel who dares not like pepperoni. "Calm down!! Why must you take things so seriously!!" they shout, "Everyone has different opinions about toppings! It's only a pizza! Just because you had a bad experience with a pepperoni pizza before, you're not giving this one a fair chance!"

This analogy isn't quite accurate because in this case, MA actually ate the "pizza" before criticizing it as part of her job, but it's just as ridiculous to me. If you truly liked a pizza, one person's negative opinion shouldn't retroactively make it taste bad, and yet that seems to be a genuine fear for many commenters. It's truly baffling.

"Your analogy, of course, is ridiculous."

The Encarta dictionary defines an analogy as: "A comparison between two things that are similar in some respects, often used to help explain something or make it easier to understand."

While I admit my analogy was extreme, that didn't make it any less analogous.

My underlying point being a refutation of the criteria (or lack of criteria) upon which the film is judged.

Actually when someone who has a link to their unproduced screenplay starts a review with "This is why Hollywood mostly sucks: Corporate movies are getting made from scripts written by 13-year-olds who went on to drop out of high school." then yeah bitter.

Ironically, the ad within the article right now is for "Paparazzi Exposed: Paris Seduced! Lindsay's Secret! J. Simpson Soaked!"

It made me laugh.

People who have made me laugh reading these comments:

Puppetbrain http://www.flickfilosopher.com/blog/2007/08/superbad_review.html#comment-19271

Giles
http://www.flickfilosopher.com/blog/2007/08/superbad_review.html#comment-19263

Giles again
http://www.flickfilosopher.com/blog/2007/08/superbad_review.html#comment-19262

Ken (just for saying "humanoids" like it's bad to be one)
http://www.flickfilosopher.com/blog/2007/08/superbad_review.html#comment-19253

Amanohyo (for being so in love with MA)
http://www.flickfilosopher.com/blog/2007/08/superbad_review.html#comment-19225

Anyway, here are MA's reviews for 2008: Forgetting Sarah Marshall? Skip it, no one should forget women. Women are great. Pure Imagination? Skip it. It's just juvenile for a young male to fantasize about having sex with an attractive woman. Pineapple Express? Skip it. Judd Apatow made it, and it's not as good as those other movies that are nothing like it.

MaryAnne: "And I am fully aware of that. Should I not express my opinion if I know it is a minority one?"

Obviously you should. This is your website, your opinions and your personality that brings people back here. 99% of the time, you're absolutely correct in your criticisms (i.e. Bourne) but for some reason, Apatow's comedies grates you the wrong way. You seriously didn't even smile, chuckle or laugh once?

I'll just remember not to take your advise to anything Judd Apatow related.

Giles: "Your reviews are like Biblical Archeology: You go into a movie with your opinions already set firmly in place and then merely look for evidence (however thin) to support your pre-established opinions while ignoring evidence to the contrary."

People keep saying this, but they've yet to offer any sort of support at all for the statement.

So ... well?

"In related news, MaryAnn, you are my personal hero for having the ability to deal so gracefully with such overpowering stupidity."

Wonderfully said Drave. I second that sentiment.

I'm surprised no one's brought up Michael Cera's work on Arrested Development. He was adorable, and held his own with an extremely talented cast. Unfortunately away from critically-acclaimed sitcoms he's going have a hard time finding quality material. I was hoping this movie would showcase his lovable nerd charm, but apparently not. And since he is nerdy, it seems likely his career is headed for a brick wall.

"Giles: "Your reviews are like Biblical Archeology: You go into a movie with your opinions already set firmly in place and then merely look for evidence (however thin) to support your pre-established opinions while ignoring evidence to the contrary." People keep saying this, but they've yet to offer any sort of support at all for the statement. So ... well?"

Fuggle,

Nope. Not going to take the bait. But you seem like a smart person. Why do you think "People keep saying this"?

I'll give you a few hints:

Any Apatow related film reviewed by MaryAnn is met with derision.

Prior to the release of "Knocked Up" the film was posted in the "I'm dreading" section of her bias meter.

For at least a week (possibly longer) Apatow was listed as "Current Enemy".

"Superbad" also rated the "I'm dreading" category.

The rest I will leave to you as I have neither the time nor the interest on writing an extended thesis on how expectations shape reality or on irrationally targeted hatred toward specific film-making individuals.

However, if you wish to test my hypothesis, what odds would you lay on MaryAnn placing "Pineapple Express" in her "I'm dreading" category followed by a loathing review of the film?

I guess I don't get it, again. MA seems to hold everything that comes out of the Apatow camp to this absurd metric of maturity while other movies get a free pass for the same. I mean, what exactly was Dazed and Confused if not a movie about dorks trying to score booze and trim? Did I miss the scalpel-precise sociological commentary in that one?

No, these are not desirable people to be. No, these are not 'men'. No shit. Was the movie funny? Was Knocked Up funny? I couldn't tell from either review because all I got was a stern condemnation of a bunch of fictional characters' lifestyles.

It's kind of galling that MA glosses over the worldview in 300, which is arguably burdened with all sorts of troublesome attitudes towards race and violence that it doesn't even bother to conceal, but rakes a juvenile sex comedy over the coals for being a juvenile sex comedy. Maybe I'm not man enough to understand, I dunno.

For more Michael Cera goodness, check out his extremely intellectual happenings at:

Clark and Michael Dot Com

you write for an internet site... your opinion means nothing. sorry.

I think its a bit harsh to say this movie shows the worst in men. What about michael cera's charecter? You all seem to be forgetting about McLovin too. One main charecter is a creep. Some guys are creeps. The other two guys are at varying and lesser degrees of creepness. I thought the film was a fair representation of male adolescent frustration. But you still never really said what you thought made a "real man" and you cant weasel out of this when i ask it by saying paraphrasing angelica pickles (if you have to ask, youll never know) because im still young. Im asking you what i should aspire to be.

You say it was written from an adolescent perspective, and in the review, you're not even willing to accept there were rewrites from when Seth Rogen originally wrote started writing it at age 13. That shows a strong bias. You've got the notion in your head that this film is written by 13 year olds, and nothing will change that. You're like Stephen Colbert - you go with what your gut tells you is right.

When in fact, every major interview these guys have done indicates that the only thing that remains from the original script is the plot outline and the dialogue and characters have undergone changes - see Premiere, Joblo, or the interview Rogen did with Conan O'Brien.

Even though the chemistry between Cera and Hill is easy, the road to Superbad was not. It all began when two best friends from Vancouver named Seth Rogen and Evan Goldberg sat through a particularly bad run of movies when they were 13. Rogen says, "we just decided let's try to write a funny movie that we would love to see. We wrote a very bad, dirty movie and then rewrote it for 15 years."

How much of the original script remains?

SR: The general idea was always in there. Two guys trying to buy alcohol to impress a girl, another guy goes off with the cops with the fake I.D.. McLovin goes off with the cops. I mean that was always the same. The real evolution was the relationship between the guys. I think in the first draft, a lot of the criticism we heard was that the characters were very much alike. And we were kind of similar, not like we’re totally different guys. So we really had a hard time wrapping our heads around, ‘how do we make another guy?’. But slowly we kind of developed with a lot of help and advice from Judd, we kind of developed a relationship and an emotional story between the guys.

Y'know, give that Cera kid a break.

The little dude got fired from Knocked Up, and this is his make-or-break feature.

@JT

That Stephen Colbert "going with his gut" thing is a part of his comedy act. If you believe it to be anything different, that is actually pretty scary.

JoshDM: I'm aware of that. I was referring to the blowhard character he portrays on his show.

MaryAnn: Fair enough. Back to your review; you claim - "This is why Hollywood mostly sucks: Corporate movies are getting made from scripts written by 13-year-olds who went on to drop out of high school." Don't you think it's a bit ludicrous for you to be railing against juvenile, corporate Hollywood movies, given that you liked Transformers?

Good stuff, all around folks. I liked this movie simply because it made me enjoy (and relate to) rooting for the physically and mentally (and thereby evolutionarily) challenged male. I'lll even admit that, although much of the (Seth's) dialogue was so utterly crass and moronic as to practically render the character entirely unrealistic, this movie made a lot of sense from a physical perspective. Universally, I think we'd agree that, no matter how intelligent, no matter how great their desire, uber geeks and nerds generally have a real tough time getting any poon. But at least to me, and in this particular case, it was a total riot watching them try their best.

So here's to all former high school drop-outs who never lose their innner adolescent's sense of humour!

Maryann seems to believe that all movies should only present the world in the best possible ideal version. Also, I think she came to the movie expecting to see something, and saw only that, without looking any deeper.

Seth's misogyny is -supposed- to be obnoxious, and pretty obviously stemming from (a) the way he is intimidated by women, (b) his low self-worth, and (c) his friends leaving him. The whole fucking point is that this stuff makes him kind of a prick at the beginning of the movie, and regardless if it fit's into the Flick Filosopher's ideal world of gender relations, it's fucking authentic. If you haven't had similar experiences yourself, you've at least known several guys like this.

You've also known or been Evan, who's obviously uncomfortable with the way Seth talks about girls, but kind of goes off the other end and puts women on a pedestal.

I mean, I just thought the whole movie was about how these two dumb, inexperienced kids came to terms with all this shit, and grew, and kind of moved past it. They're still fundamentally themselves, and they're still obviously going to have a lot more growing to do, but they've done a lot of growing already.

And honestly, I think it's downright insulting to just dismiss someone's experiences of coming to terms with their sexuality, the loss of friends, and their own self-worth issues just because it was so easy for you. I guess if anyone has a different life experience from you, they're just stunted? If they weren't able to become neurosis-free, fully functioning independant adults by fifteen, then they're all obviously worthless trash who deserve to be patronized at best, and reviled at worst?

I think some of this is stemming from the fact that yes, generally girls have a harder time of it than boys because yes, there is a really tremendous amount of misogyny in our culture. But, it's not exactly a picnic for adolescent boys, either. I just am really put-off by how unwilling Maryann seems to put herself in another person's shoes, to even -try- to relate to the self-consciousness and fear that these boys have of the world.

And it really seemed to me that the end of the movie was all about how they had finally realized that all their weird conceptions of girls that they'd developed without actually, you know, -interacting- with them, were totally flawed. And they realized it.

Was I the only one who thought this? Am I just rationalizing my love of the movie? Or did it seem like the Flick Filosopher, in her eagerness to be outraged, totally ignored the parts of the movie which put the rest of it in context.

Oh, and as someone who dropped out of high school, got an equivalency, and is hoping to transfer to a UC school after a stint at community college, that nonsense about using "high school dropout" as a pejorative put me off.

Just because you dropped out of high school doesn't mean you're stupid, misogynistic, or immature. Maybe you just really didn't like going to a depressing hellhole day after day, and maybe your clinical depression made it hard for you to get your schoolwork done, and maybe you're hoping college will be better, but you're still terrified about your future.

Does none of that matter because I dropped out of high school? Are those all just excuses for my immaturity? Are my flaws (which I'm working on) and trials invalid simply because you say so? Of course, I would disagree.

Fundamentally, I don't think an unwillingness to look at the other side speaks well of anyone. You might realize that they're not so different after all.

Wow, can we say uptight? I love how you try to make fun of anyone who would like this movie by calling them immature. Sorry to break it to you, but plenty of guys think the stuff that the guys in this movie say out loud and think it's hilarious. You can make fun of all the people that can and will enjoy this movie, but that's ok because they probably wouldn't listen to a word you said after reading your review.

"And I grant that the movie IS NOT TRYING to be smart and sophisticated. Part of what I’m railing against -- as I did with *Knocked Up* -- is the idea that not-smart and not-sophisticated is an okay place for American culture to be at. It may well be there, but we shouldn’t be proud of that."

Ya, it's not trying to be smart and sophisticated. It's trying to be accurate.

It'd be stupid to suggest that every guy shares the same general highschool experience, or that every guy knew someone like the characters in this film, but I happen to be one of them. Based on the comments posted here, I'm not the only one. Movies like Dazed and Confused, and in fact almost every single teen-comedy, are fake in the sense that the characters in them are stereotypes your average joe can't relate to. Evan, Seth, and even Fogell are people I know -- highschool dudes who are awkward and horny and completely in the dark about girls.

Superbad isn't promoting their behaviour; I'm sure many male adults look back on how they acted in higschool and think that some of the things they did were real stupid and immature. That's why they can watch this movie and laugh because they've 'been there'. This movie was a trip down memory lane for guys, and some girls. As a recent highschool graduate, I watched this film and looked back on the last four years of my life and I could relate to this film. Strangely enough -- as this film concentrates a lot more on its male characters -- my female friends could relate, too.

I can appreciate how some people might not be able to relate to this film as well as me or everyone I know, how some people had such a drastically different highschool experience that this movie feels wrong to them, but don't compare it to such horribly fake films as Dazed and Confused and its cliche cohorts and then claim they more accurately and appropriately represent adolescence. That's not just an insult to Superbad, but to guys. Which is probably why so many males here are up-in-arms about your review.

Well, I saw this movie and my thoughts are this: Is maturity the be-all end-all of human existence? Do you demand everything you do be mature? And if you do, do you hold movies to that same standard? Must all movies be mature? Or for that matter, smart? Moral? Deep?

"Part of what I’m railing against -- as I did with *Knocked Up* -- is the idea that not-smart and not-sophisticated is an okay place for American culture to be at."

I mean, seriously, what's that bullshit? I know you don't genuinely believe that.

Can't help but notice that MaryAnn again seems to point out that one of the reasons she hates this film is that she can't fathom how any woman would be attracted to men like the ones in this film. Let me point out that in the Knocked Up thread MaryAnn clearly stated she does not think that a good personality or sense of humor has anything to do with establishing a good relationship, not that the character of Seth has a good personality. Still, you get my point. I still find it sad that MaryAnn has to point out the fact that her idea of romance is very shallow and trite. Her reviews have consistently dealt with this subject matter whenever an actor she does not find physically attractive ends up with a woman who is physically attractive. Not saying that Super Bad is a wonderful film. I found lots of things wrong with it. But, in the end, the film accomplished its mission, to make the audience laugh.

Reviewer: "Superbad is immature dreck."

Reader: "I enjoyed Superbad and found it edifying, so now my feelings are hurt."

Reviewer: "Maybe the fact that so many people find a film like Superbad edifying reveals a deep cultural flaw."

Reader: "I don't want to consider the film in that light; I just want to enjoy a crass, stupid movie every once in a while."

Reviewer: "Ok, fine."

Reader: "But I want you to make me feel good about enjoying the movie."

Reviewer: "That's not going to happen."

Reader: "You suck at this!"

There's nothing at all wrong with MaryAnn not liking the film. I only complain when she A. gets defensive on here when someone has a different opinion or B. Contradicts herself, which happens a lot.

"Ya, it's not trying to be smart and sophisticated. It's trying to be accurate."

And it's been stated more than once - the problem with the movie isn't that! That's not a problem at all. The problem's not with the accuracy, but WITH the attitude towards that accuracy.

The two are rather vastly distinct, and has been said multiple times - it's her perception of that attitude, not of the accuracy of the film - that (or so it seems to me) fuels her negativity to this.

Shaun: People who have made me laugh reading these comments:
Ken (just for saying "humanoids" like it's bad to be one) http://www.flickfilosopher.com/blog/2007/08/superbad_review.html#comment-19253

That's just my homage to Bobby Heenan, back from the days when I used to watch professional wrestling.

Josh Let me point out that in the Knocked Up thread MaryAnn clearly stated she does not think that a good personality or sense of humor has anything to do with establishing a good relationship, not that the character of Seth has a good personality. Still, you get my point. I still find it sad that MaryAnn has to point out the fact that her idea of romance is very shallow and trite.

I think if you went back and read the Knocked Up review and comments you'd find that her message was that a good personality or sense of humor shouldn't be the sole basis of a relationship. Which would make her idea of romance less shallow and trite than those who think it can be.

Not saying that Super Bad is a wonderful film. I found lots of things wrong with it. But, in the end, the film accomplished its mission, to make the audience laugh.

Obviously it didn't for everyone.

MaryAnn - Going back to the conversation, I did notice that you stated that personality and sense of humor matter. I apoligize. Yet, you stated that those things are not as important and that they are, "But they are the bare minimum you start from. They are not the ONLY basis for a relationship -- they're a given." I agree that many people do look for looks over personality, and I also agree that, for most people, looks are the most important thing when first meeting someone. I also know that I am the type of person someone like yourself would call a "schlub" yet I get attractive women flirting with me when they first meet me. It has to do with the personality and signals a person sends out. Not all women are looking for the next Brad Pitt. There are plenty that are looking for a guy who just makes them happy. I think the main discussion about the Knocked Up review is that you were totally oblivious to the fact that Alison was attracted to Ben, even before they were drunk and slept together. The film made this blatantly obvious and I can't understand how you could miss that unless you were totally repulsed by the idea of someone falling for a guy like Ben. Then, you defend the Paul Rudd character who has all of the same flaws that Ben does but is good looking. This is a running thread in your reviews. Your review of "Hitch" described the film as a "fantasy that every man has, that he deserves a supermodel as a girlfriend, no matter how much of a schlub he is." Who was the schlub in that film? Was it the Kevin James character? I would not call him a schlub just because the guy is overweight and a little on the socially awkward side, but that's my opinion. Then, I read your review of You, Me, and Dupree, which you seemed to like a lot. You call Owen Wilsons character in You, Me, and Dupree a lovable fuckup. You seem very smitten with the character. OK, let's examine this. The Dupree charac