Joker movie review: sad clown, bad clown, not at all a rad clown

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Joker red light

MaryAnn’s quick take…

Not fit to lick the boots of Martin Scorsese or Christopher Nolan, though the height of its ambition appears to be its desperation to do so. A movie as pathetically ineffectual as its protagonist.
I’m “biast” (pro): nothing
I’m “biast” (con): nothing
(what is this about? see my critic’s minifesto)
women’s participation in this film
male director, male screenwriter, male protagonist
(learn more about this)

Alas, the only remotely entertaining or even mildly interesting aspect of Joker is the notion that it might be so incendiary a depiction of a white man ignored by society who turns to violence that it incites real-life violence by real-life white men who think they are being ignored by society.

In a word: Ha!

To take even this lickspittle snippet of resonance away from the movie, this notion is nought but a metatextual one, not even part of the actual movie. We could say that this is ironically appropriate, if also unintentionally so. Or is it intentional? Did someone set out to make a movie that would (hopefully?) serve as a call to arms for disaffected white men?

Whatever: This pathetically ineffectual movie– as pathetically ineffectual as its protagonist — can only wish to be so dangerous.

Joker Joaquin Phoenix
I’ve also been that person having a public breakdown on mass transit, and yet somehow I’ve managed to refrain from killing anyone…

Joker is faux Scorsese. It is ersatz Christopher Nolan. It is not fit to lick the boots of either Taxi Driver or The Dark Knight, though the height of its ambition would appear to be its desperation to do so. This is a movie so dull, so obvious, that that is the most criminal thing about its portrait of a man “driven” to criminality by “society.” Oh, is Arthur Fleck (Joaquin Phoenix: Mary Magdalene, Irrational Man) — soon to be the homicidal antagonist to Batman known as the Joker — sad? Is he lonely? Is his life not what he’d hoped it would be? Welcome to humanity, asshole. Deal with it.

Director — and coscreenwriter, with Scott Silver (The Finest Hours, 8 Mile) — Todd Phillips is a filmmaker whose entire “oeuvre” (I use the word loosely) has been about celebrating white-male inadequacy, about white men somehow getting away with skating through life thoroughly unengaged in anything beyond partying (see his Hangover movies), or humiliating white men who try to grow up (see his appalling Due Date). Now, Phillips is attempting to be “serious” by removing all the plausibility-denying fantasy from a comic-book villain by making a movie about him that is “realistic” and “gritty” or whatever-the-hell he thinks gives him cover for indulging male rage as a sorry-not-sorry *wink* response to an unreasonable world.

Joker Robert De Niro
I love De Niro, but he is the last person who should be hosting a late-night TV talk show…

And yet: It’s still all the same-old justifying nonsense. There is nothing original here… and not because it’s about a comic-book character who has been depicted on screens large and small multiple times. Another white man who has not been handed fame and fortune and respect and sexy willing babes in return for having done absolutely fucking nothing with his life is angry. Cry us a river, pal.

Hello! When you take away the plausibility-denying comic-book fantasy… when you take away the over-the-top absurdity… when you take away the perfectly acceptable nonsensical dispatch of a reason for a clown-faced killer to terrorize a city… now you’re literally vilifying mental illness. (Phillips and Silver give Arthur a condition, in which he laughs uncontrollably in moments that are socially inappropriate, that may be the authentic pseudobulbar affect, or may be something of their own invention. Either way: No.)

Thanks, I hate it. This is not what the world needs right now.

Welcome to a visually washed-out retro Gotham, featuring overtures of late-70s, early 80s New York City — there’s a strike by sanitation workers that is causing black bags of garbage to disgustingly pile up on city streets, which actually happened in the Big Apple in 1977 and 1981. This is where I’m supposed to say that Joaquin Phoenix is “daring” and “radical” or some shit for having lost a lot of weight to play Arthur Fleck, failed stand-up comic, on-call clown for streetside promotions and children’s-ward hospital visits. I’m sure the actor pushed himself physically… but he doesn’t find anything psychologically fresh or intriguing in this character. Arthur is not happy with caring for his not-at-all-well mother (Frances Conroy: Welcome to Happiness, Stone), and he fantasizes a romance with his neighbor (Zazie Beetz [Geostorm]… and fuck this movie for treating her awesome presence even more poorly than Deadpool 2 does). It seems we are meant to automatically, reflexively feel bad for him… as if caring for blood relatives and dreaming of getting it on with people out of our league is not everyday reality for the vast majority of the human race.

Joker
Random assholes taking inspiration from a homicidal clown? Well, that’s plausible, at least…

Arthur has not been granted the life he wants without having to do the work to earn it… though he fantasizes about that, too, via a late-night TV talk show hosted by *checks notes* Robert De Niro’s Murray Franklin; Arthur likes to dream that Franklin’s show will see Arthur’s alleged comedic genius, invite him on, and, you know, etc. De Niro’s (Joy, The Intern) presence here might be the most inexplicable aspect of this damn movie. I am a huge De Niro fan, but he is bizarrely miscast: he simply does not have the charming, relaxing personality America wants for drifting off to sleep with the TV on in the background. This casting is likely meant to be a nod to De Niro’s King of Comedy turn, but even that suggests a willful misreading of The King of Comedy and of De Niro’s entire cinematic history. Jesus wept, no. Just no.

The real world of 2019 handed Todd Phillips a platter of easy pickin’s: income inequality (billionaire Thomas Wayne [Brett Cullen: The Runaways, Gridiron Gang], ie, Batman’s dad, is the ostensible villain here); the collapse of social services (the safety net that helps Arthur deal with his mental illness is cut); even the not-so-quiet rage of pathetically ineffectual men threatening to boil over into civil unrest. And Joker does not one thing interesting or engaging with it. It pushes no envelopes. It is not edgy in any respect. It is just… here. And it assumes that its mere existence is reason to applaud. It most definitely is not.



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Beowulf
Beowulf
Wed, Oct 02, 2019 7:25pm

Is the bit he does dancing (?) down the steps as cool as it looks in brief trailer flashes? That appears to be the only thing in this movie I’d like to see.

StinKDoG901
StinKDoG901
reply to  Beowulf
Wed, Oct 02, 2019 11:25pm

Yes,And it’s a SLOWWWWW MOTIONNNNN close-up shot.

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  Beowulf
Thu, Oct 03, 2019 9:18am

Define “cool”? What do you find cool about it, in context of this character?

Beowulf
Beowulf
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Fri, Oct 04, 2019 5:26pm

Huh? Haven’t seen the film so I’m not sure what you mean by context of this character. I thought what I saw was “interesting” (if cool is the wrong word to you), kinda compelling, kinda gymnastic. I still have no desire to see it, not even on $5.50 Tuesdays.

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  Beowulf
Sat, Oct 05, 2019 9:50am

Your use of the word “cool” isn’t about me but about you, and what you meant by it. “Interesting” doesn’t really tell me much more about what that dance does for you.

It did nothing for me, but I can’t predict whether you will like it in the movie or not. Sorry.

Beowulf
Beowulf
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Sat, Oct 05, 2019 3:12pm

I DON’T think I would like the movie from what I’ve seen in the trailer and from reviews like yours. I just found the physical “dance” down the steps to be compelling–much like that teenage American gymnast who has incredible floor exercise moves. I think I’ll not like CATS but I enjoy the ballet moves of the White Cat in the hideous trailer.

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  Beowulf
Sun, Oct 06, 2019 11:57am

Well, by the time we get to that bit in the movie, I was so repelled by this character and the movie’s framing of him that I couldn’t find the dance cool or interesting or anything good. Hope that helps.

scottc
scottc
reply to  Beowulf
Thu, Oct 10, 2019 11:32pm

Yes. i will never hear Rock and Roll Part 2 without thinking of this scene.

Mario Maroo
Mario Maroo
Wed, Oct 02, 2019 7:37pm

You seem like one miserable cunt of a human being , a man hating pro feminist that seems to think any film centering around a white male is the slavery era all over again

Why don’t YOU go and cry us a river you joyless cow.

StinKDoG901
StinKDoG901
reply to  Mario Maroo
Wed, Oct 02, 2019 11:09pm

So in your opinion,A movie that praise an extreme selfishness, mentally disordered man could execute anyone only because he’s “disappointed” is not miserable at all?If this reviewer is a cunt,then Todd Phillips would be a nazi.Hitler can also says that Jewish let him down.

Mario Maroo
Mario Maroo
reply to  StinKDoG901
Thu, Oct 03, 2019 10:01am

Jesus Christ …. talk about reaching …. you fucked in the head or something ? , where in my comment even implied that ?.

StinKDoG901
StinKDoG901
reply to  Mario Maroo
Thu, Oct 03, 2019 11:16am

Your comment has 0% relationship with the movie,but 100% blame the critic. You sure with confidence that film is good enough.So I assume that you‘re supporting this film,Isn’t this a very reasonable inference?

The Dude
The Dude
reply to  StinKDoG901
Fri, Oct 04, 2019 9:59pm

That’s the point gao…it’s a movie. There should be movies about everything from every point of view. It’s entertainment…it Doesn’t always have to be seen from a political or agenda based lens. You’re reaching a bit my friend

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  The Dude
Sat, Oct 05, 2019 9:51am

There should be movies about everything from every point of view.

Indeed there should be. And there are. But that doesn’t mean they all work.

It’s entertainment.

And yet I did not find it entertaining.

The Dude
The Dude
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Sat, Oct 05, 2019 10:02pm

That’s fine…but to the outside reader of you reviews it definitely comes off as you having some pretty stribg bias about certain movies based on your personal beliefs and that makes for a pretty rough review. People want a reviewer to review a movie based on its own merit and for what it is trying to present. It feels to your readers that you are letting your personal views skew the review too much and aren’t trying to review it based on what the movie is trying to portray. In essence, it feels like you are essentially missing the point because the points that you make that seem to knock the movie are the exact point of the movie and what it is trying to present. I think allowing your mind to go into the review with a more neutral mindset and trying to perceive the movie for what it is would help your reviews to come off as something that your readers can find more trustworthy and more helpful when they are deciding whether or not they want to see it. That’s the main reason people read reviews…and if your readers have to think “well Maryann is saying this but I know how she’s feels about this kind of thing personally and so I should probably take what she is saying with a grain of salt” then the average reader isn’t going to feel like they can trust your review.

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  The Dude
Sun, Oct 06, 2019 11:58am

it definitely comes off as you having some pretty stribg bias about certain movies based on your personal beliefs

Great! I don’t try to hide any of my biases.

People want a reviewer to review a movie based on its own merit and for what it is trying to present.

If you read review and you think the critic is unbiased, it’s only because you share the critic’s biases, and so the review reads as neutral to you. Every critic is biased, and I DID review this movie — as I do ALL MOVIES — “for what it is trying to present.” The thing is, my perception of that is going to be different that that of many other people, INCLUDING that of the white men who absolutely dominate film criticism.

I think allowing your mind to go into the review with a more neutral mindset

There is no such thing as a “neutral mindset.” You only think there is because our culture treats one very narrow mindset as neutral. That is a fallacy.

the average reader isn’t going to feel like they can trust your review.

Define “the average reader”! Tell me what you think is “average.” Tell me what you think is a “neutral mindset.” Go on, tell me.

The Dude
The Dude
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Mon, Oct 07, 2019 7:58pm

Everyone has biases obviously…I just think most people will appreciate and take a reviewer more seriously of the reviewer can try to put them aside as much as possibly when trying to review a film. People usually read reviews to try and figure out if they would like to see a movie…the average person that is. Maybe the purpose of your site is to give reviews from a certain bias or standpoint…and if that’s the case than that’s fine…I just think that it’s inportabt for readers to try to have some sort of trust on the reviewers abilities in order to take the review seriously and obvious or extreme bias definitely hurts that’s relationship and kind of defeats the purpose. I think most reviewers would like fir their audience to develop that trust overtime and if that can’t be developed then you’ll only be catering to an audience of very specifically like minded people and that would seem unfulfilling as hell in my opinion. The feedback you receive and your comment section will only be fulfilled with extremes in that scenario…extremely likeminded individuals, and extremely angry ones…with a few in between like mine ; ). All I’m saying is reviewing is somewhat of an art form and extremely biased reviews are a very bland and almost always disappointing form of that art.

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  The Dude
Tue, Oct 08, 2019 12:40pm

give reviews from a certain bias or standpoint.

All critics are doing that. Whether they realize it or not.

I think most reviewers would like fir their audience to develop that trust overtime

Dude, I’ve been here for 22 YEARS.

Anonymous Watcher37
Anonymous Watcher37
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Sun, Oct 13, 2019 2:21pm

Easy on the insults sister. Just remember who America’s net taxpayers are. Until they’re not.

amanohyo
amanohyo
reply to  Anonymous Watcher37
Tue, Oct 15, 2019 2:11am

Ah, I can see the headline now:

“56% of Americans Suddenly Refuse to Pay Taxes!”

“That mean comment was the last straw,”says local man.
“Wait… did we even insult him, and how does any of this connect to tax collection?” baffled critics respond.

In unrelated news, the top 1% stated today, “We’ve decided to buy that second beach house a couple miles up the hill with a pair of his and hers matching Teslas in case this whole climate change thing pans out. Have you guys tried the pan-seared half Jidori chicken with goat cheese and wild mushrooms at Spago yet? It’s all locally sourced you know,” they added with a self-satisfied, conscientious nod.

When asked for comment, the top 0.1% replied, “Taxes? What are those, some kind of Bizarro World subsidies? Stop bothering us, we’re competing to figure out who can build the coolest mansion on the moon.”

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  Anonymous Watcher37
Wed, Oct 16, 2019 8:54am

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean.

StinKDoG901
StinKDoG901
reply to  Mario Maroo
Wed, Oct 02, 2019 11:23pm

And again,The meaning of debate is not put random nouns in front of people you dislike.PROOF IT.

susmart3
susmart3
reply to  Mario Maroo
Thu, Oct 03, 2019 12:22am

You should definitely see it 12 times then, and take your incel friends. That will show women.

Mario Maroo
Mario Maroo
reply to  susmart3
Thu, Oct 03, 2019 9:56am

Actually me and a pal of mine who has been fucked over by a woman ( what ?!?! a woman doing a bad thing ? … no never … ) are going to see it

we’ll be taking notes ;)

All hail Arthur Fleck.

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  Mario Maroo
Thu, Oct 03, 2019 11:34am

Wow, you actually do see a hero in this character? Terrifying.

Mario Maroo
Mario Maroo
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Thu, Oct 03, 2019 2:41pm

Oh fuck me you’re actually this dense not to see my comment was a joke ? … fucking hell , and you’re how old ? …. you’re the one that needs help.

The Dude
The Dude
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Fri, Oct 04, 2019 10:00pm

MaryAnn he’s obnoxious as hell but pretty sure he was kidding

Mario Maroo
Mario Maroo
reply to  The Dude
Fri, Oct 04, 2019 10:09pm

Unlike you of course pal ? ironic since you seem in support of this obnoxious bitch , hypocrite.

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  Mario Maroo
Sat, Oct 05, 2019 9:52am

And now you are banned.

The Dude
The Dude
reply to  Mario Maroo
Sat, Oct 05, 2019 10:04pm

Read my reply to her…I said her review is biased based on her personal views. The irony of YOU calling someone an obnoxious birch is just too much man! 😂

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  The Dude
Sat, Oct 05, 2019 9:52am

I’m not at all sure. His comment seems entirely in sincere keeping with the others he’s posted here.

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  Mario Maroo
Thu, Oct 03, 2019 9:21am

So convincing an argument! You have won me over, sir? Shall I go make you sandwich in apology for upsetting sir?

Mario Maroo
Mario Maroo
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Thu, Oct 03, 2019 9:54am

Yeah please do … and extra mustard …. though you’d more than likely poison me you miserable bitch …. you sleep well with your ” kill all men ” poster above your bed post Mary ? ….. just asking.

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  Mario Maroo
Thu, Oct 03, 2019 11:34am

Get help.

Ryan Tillett
Ryan Tillett
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Thu, Oct 03, 2019 10:22pm

^^That sounds like a yes lol

Mario Maroo
Mario Maroo
reply to  Ryan Tillett
Fri, Oct 04, 2019 9:50am

Lol indeed bro , she most properly idolizes radical feminists like Andrea Dworkin and the like

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  Mario Maroo
Fri, Oct 04, 2019 9:54am

You say that like it’s a bad thing…

Mario Maroo
Mario Maroo
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Fri, Oct 04, 2019 9:57am

Jesus Christ …. and you ain’t joking …. hahaha honestly no hope for you , or are you just trolling ….nah you read her quotes before you go to sleep don’t ya.

You are aware she also endorsed incest right …… oh wait ….. ooooh …. i ain’t going there.

How did you become a verified film critic again ?

Danielm80
Danielm80
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Fri, Oct 04, 2019 10:20am

I love the malapropism in his comment. It puts the situation in the proper perspective.

Mario Maroo
Mario Maroo
reply to  Danielm80
Fri, Oct 04, 2019 3:38pm

Sorry if am not as intelligent as you , …. but then again you seem in agreement with a borderline headcase man hater …. so …… yeah.

bronxbee
bronxbee
reply to  Mario Maroo
Fri, Oct 04, 2019 3:33pm

well, *that* didn’t take long…

The Dude
The Dude
reply to  Mario Maroo
Fri, Oct 04, 2019 9:56pm

Mario you too should go out for dinner then bud….because you are ironically definitely coming off as a miserable cunt as well

Mario Maroo
Mario Maroo
reply to  The Dude
Fri, Oct 04, 2019 10:15pm

In what regard ? , a classic is out in cinemas , i am studying for a degree , healthy , what’s to be miserable about ? but of course i suppose you’re a good judge of character though what is type in text ?.

Please do tell me how you could be this insightful yet so off on your judgement you dumb prick.

The Dude
The Dude
reply to  Mario Maroo
Sat, Oct 05, 2019 10:03pm

Mario people don’t spend their time doing what you are doing and behaving the way that you are when they are happy. 99% of people at least. You come off very angry and upset my friend. Why not disagree with a little tact and then people might take what your saying seriously and not just think you are an angry and upset little kid….because that’s how you’re coming off brother…big time.

Jimmy Fellon
Jimmy Fellon
reply to  Mario Maroo
Sat, Oct 05, 2019 8:25pm

Using “Joker” character as an “answer” for women and the world that stopped smiling at you doesn’t improve the quality of this bad movie.

Arthur Fleck
Arthur Fleck
Wed, Oct 02, 2019 7:42pm

This review is by far the biggest pile of garbage I’ve come across. You’re not fit to lick the ass of Joaquin Phoenix or this movie. You miserable piece of shit.

susmart3
susmart3
reply to  Arthur Fleck
Thu, Oct 03, 2019 12:25am

Do you often fantasize about “lick(ing) the ass of Joaquin Phoenix” in particular, or all male actors in movies who have been wronged by women reviewers?

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  Arthur Fleck
Thu, Oct 03, 2019 9:21am

The difference is, I have literally no interest in licking Joaquin Phoenix’s ass. Unlike, it would seem, you.

Jimmy Fellon
Jimmy Fellon
reply to  Arthur Fleck
Sat, Oct 05, 2019 8:27pm

Don’t you like to hunt, fish? Play football? Is anyone stopping this? Too bad society doesn’t have a project to help these boys and men find better ways.

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  Jimmy Fellon
Sun, Oct 06, 2019 12:05pm

The world does have such a project: It’s called feminism. Unshackling humanity from the horrors of patriarchy will benefit men as well as women.

Power2Glory
Power2Glory
Wed, Oct 02, 2019 7:50pm

This isn’t a film review, it’s a misandrist rant.

The Joker in this film may be pathetic…but not as pathetic as you!!

Sebastian Fisher
Sebastian Fisher
reply to  Power2Glory
Tue, Oct 08, 2019 3:37pm

The fact that Joker being a white guy is brought up not just once but several times makes it abundantly clear that this review is more concerned with viewing the movie from a political angle than as an actual film.

The defending in the comments that ‘Arthur’s skin color is super important to the movie you guys’ is seriously just flat out wrong.

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  Sebastian Fisher
Tue, Oct 08, 2019 6:05pm

Oh, honey… If you want to think that Arthur’s skin color isn’t important, just ask yourself how a man who ISN’T white who does what Arthur does would be treated by 1981 faux New York. Or even 2019 faux New York.

Bluejay
Bluejay
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Thu, Oct 10, 2019 1:03am
MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  Bluejay
Fri, Oct 11, 2019 8:28am

Agree completely with that NYT essay.

SaltHarvest
SaltHarvest
reply to  Bluejay
Thu, Oct 17, 2019 7:46pm

With thanks to Andrew Klavan…

New York Times, a former newspaper

That review went after the wrong white man. Thomas Wayne was the fascist fit with the white supremacy strait jacket in this movie. Because of budget cuts, quote marks have been left unsupplied.

Bluejay
Bluejay
reply to  SaltHarvest
Thu, Oct 17, 2019 9:39pm

I see you’ve scattered your little poop-comments all over this forum. Aren’t you an annoying little flea. Blocking you now, motherfucker. Adios.

SaltHarvest
SaltHarvest
reply to  Bluejay
Thu, Oct 17, 2019 9:42pm

First up in the “none so blind” contingent. Thanks for your minimal and risible response.

zak1
zak1
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Thu, Oct 17, 2019 2:11pm

It would add a fascinating undertone if Arthur’s mother were black – how we would read his interactions with Thomas and Bruce Wayne – very likely Wayne security would have simply shot him on the spot

But it cuts both ways – the notion of white privilege was cultivated among the masses early on, by giving indentured servants just enough table scraps to make them feel superior to chattel slaves – instead of making common cause with them – it was a powerful divisive tactic that has in many ways defined the shape of our country – deeply sad to think human beings are so susceptible

I think the film is making a case that people should consider the circumstances of the vulnerable among us – in today’s cultural climate, white male still reads as “universal” – this logic certainly affects how a film is green-lit, and how it might be marketed and distributed – and how pundits may react to it – yes, this is institutional racism

At the same time, many white audiences have been more deeply indoctrinated by this kind of twisted logic – to the extent that they would deny themselves much needed relief out of spite – they would rather miss out on social support themselves than share the benefit with the “undeserving”

So, if Joker is trying to challenge precisely this kind of reasoning, pleading for empathy and compassion, then it’s just as well the character is a white male – to make it that much harder for precisely these resolute audiences to dismiss the message

I think people identify with Arthur not as a righteous figure, but as a tragic figure – it’s a waste what happens to him; we dread the choices he will make, but many understand his susceptibility

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  zak1
Thu, Oct 17, 2019 2:58pm

It would add a fascinating undertone if Arthur’s mother were black

But then, according to our culture, Arthur himself would be black. And he would not benefit from white privilege. There would be no “undertone” about it.

I think the film is making a case that people should consider the circumstances of the vulnerable among us

But even given Arthur’s situation, he is far less vulnerable than nonwhite and/or nonmale people would be. Seriously, is our culture able to consider the vulnerability of anyone who is not white and male? Signs point to no.

to make it that much harder for precisely these resolute audiences to dismiss the message

In what way does it do that? This movie does not extend such compassion to anyone but Arthur. It does not ask the audience to consider the even more extreme vulnerability of people who do not look like Arthur.

I think people identify with Arthur

I think by “people” you mean “white men.”

zak1
zak1
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Thu, Oct 17, 2019 3:38pm

I agree that Arthur’s white male-ness is part of the picture, but I don’t agree that this is so central. If he were a white female, would we disregard abuse because the character is white? Besides, even if he had a black parent, he could still very well pass as white, but this might add interesting undertones to how he and the audience view the events

“FAR less vulnerable”? This is the gray area I am looking at – he’s not on a different planet. Is it possible simply to look at poverty in universal terms? Starvation and lack of medical care affect people’s bodies the same way. As a group, minorities are more vulnerable, which is why non-minorities need to view minority problems, not just as morally wrong, but as warnings to themselves – like the canary in the mine-shaft – an early indicator of erosion that might spread – protecting minority rights means safeguarding the society as a whole

It is possible to talk about the people of the society as a single group – it’s possible to talk about broad social decay and malaise without turning it into an “ouch” contest

“The movie does not extend such compassion” – I disagree – this is one of those movies where the audience is practically inside one character’s head – it’s true – so everything is viewed through the eyes of that character – but Arthur reacts negatively when he sees others around him being abused – we see he is upset when his height-challenged colleague is mocked at work – similarly, when the white collar men are abusing the Asian woman on the subway, he is visibly upset, which is what attracts their attention – he shows more empathy than others around him,

but, even if this weren’t true, the film makes it very clear that Arthur’s problems aren’t unique to him – he is a victim of problems affecting many others; this is pointed out repeatedly – even his psychologist points this out – she may also be losing her job even as he loses his access to counseling and support (her problem is not as dire as his – does this mean she’s “privileged”, or that they’re both facing hard times?)

“People” – no, I mean “people” – this film is taking off on a global level, all around the world, and men and women are identifying with this character – this does not make Joker a good movie, and perhaps they are mistaken to do so, but the insane ticket sales and widespread positive reactions show clearly a wide range of people are identifying with him, for better or worse

SaltHarvest
SaltHarvest
reply to  zak1
Thu, Oct 17, 2019 8:08pm

I don’t think they’re identifying with the Joker so much as resonating with some of the core messages in the movie, although perhaps not consciously.

SaltHarvest
SaltHarvest
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Thu, Oct 17, 2019 8:02pm

There is a dearth of compassion, in the movie, and by process of reflection, without.

SaltHarvest
SaltHarvest
reply to  zak1
Thu, Oct 17, 2019 7:58pm

More on the mark than the review.

SaltHarvest
SaltHarvest
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Thu, Oct 17, 2019 7:39pm

He would be accosted in an alley way and have the shit beat out of him.. maybe by cops instead.

SaltHarvest
SaltHarvest
reply to  Sebastian Fisher
Thu, Oct 17, 2019 7:38pm

As the movie itself is blatantly political, a politicized review is fair game. :)

David_Conner
David_Conner
Wed, Oct 02, 2019 8:03pm

I’m not terribly interested in the kerfuffles about this movie’s sociopolitical implications, but it just looks so pretentious and *tedious*. It sounds like the trailer really does hit all the predictable beats of the movie.

I was hoping they’d at least have some fun with it, like some speculation I saw that DeNiro was literally playing his King of Comedy character.

And the Joker should be genuinely *funny*. Probably in a very twisted way, of course, but he should be fun to watch on some level.

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  David_Conner
Thu, Oct 03, 2019 9:25am

t sounds like the trailer really does hit all the predictable beats of the movie.

It absolutely does. There’s nothing at all surprising or unexpected that happens here, and no interesting exploration of what does happen.

Edd
Edd
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Mon, Oct 07, 2019 10:27am

Lol

Edd
Edd
reply to  David_Conner
Mon, Oct 07, 2019 10:27am

He is, actually. You know, watching a movie is KEY to know anything about it

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  Edd
Tue, Oct 08, 2019 12:46pm

If you’re going to be an asshole and not contribute anything to the conversation, I will ban you.

Edd
Edd
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Tue, Oct 08, 2019 7:34pm

There are PLENTY of things that are suprises. I dont know what to tell you about that.

SaltHarvest
SaltHarvest
reply to  David_Conner
Thu, Oct 17, 2019 8:11pm

The funny part comes in when the clear intended audience misses the message, or elects to shoot the messenger.

Danielm80
Danielm80
Wed, Oct 02, 2019 8:10pm

I was pretty sure this discussion thread was going to get flooded with trolls, but this may be the first review where all the trolls turn out to be the same person.

TheInkAndThePaper
TheInkAndThePaper
Wed, Oct 02, 2019 10:31pm

Shockingly bad review. Judging by the general tone of this reviewing website, it was bound to be distributed a negative score though. As parroted a nauseating amount of times throughout the review, it has a white male as the lead actor (oh the horror) and it doesn’t portray a woman as being a victim in some capacity, and it doesn’t constantly bash Orange Man Bad. Just your garden variety self-loathing, misandrist racist, nothing to see here folks.

susmart3
susmart3
reply to  TheInkAndThePaper
Wed, Oct 02, 2019 11:06pm

And nothing worth reading in your comment, either. Folks.

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  TheInkAndThePaper
Thu, Oct 03, 2019 9:26am

Judging by the general tone of this reviewing website, it was bound to be distributed a negative score though.

You realize that this sort of analysis works for the output of literally any film critic, don’t you?

amanohyo
amanohyo
reply to  TheInkAndThePaper
Thu, Oct 03, 2019 4:42pm

MA loves classic Indiana Jones, The Doctor in almost all of its incarnations, Buckaroo Banzai, and The Princess Bride. She recently Greenlighted Ms. Lowry and Son, Good Boys, Armstrong, and Toy Story 4. These facts are not consistent with your assertion that she hates movies with white male lead actors that portray women as victims. None of the regular readers here particularly enjoy films that portray women as victims. Skimming the comments, I do see a few defensive and frightened people who appear to feel victimized – MA is not one of them.

And Orange Man Bad? Why must angry commenters always bring up their personal politics apropos nothing? It’s not even 2020 yet. If you believe any mention of an angry white man equates to Orange Man Bad, that says a lot more about you and Orange Man than anyone else.

Since you didn’t read the review, her thesis is: “Life is tough for many people, but this film wants us to empathize with this particular person who feels entitled to all the rewards of life without putting in much effort. His criminal journey is presented in an unoriginal and unrevealing way.” Most of the time this “my life sucks because I don’t get everything I want – oh wait violence fixes everything now I am the antihero” plot is centered on a white male which is ironically insensitive considering the structural inequalities at the foundation of western society.

Ideally, you’d watch the movie and tell us what you did or didn’t like about it, then make a supported argument about why you think the thesis of the review is incorrect, maybe compare it to other movies you’ve seen. But if your sense of duty demands that you engage in battle before gathering any of that pesky ammunition called “firsthand facts about the movie being discussed,” (I understand the impulse) at least have the decency to engage with the ideas presented in the review and not the flimsy straw feminist you tote everywhere like a favorite chew toy.

“Review Bad. Politics Bad. Reviewer Stupid. Me Win.” may help you let off steam, but it is completely useless to anyone who wants to think about movies or think in general. You have a brain, please use it for something more than closing doors and keeping score.

Edd
Edd
reply to  amanohyo
Mon, Oct 07, 2019 10:44am

The movie quite literally doesnt asks you to to empathize with a killer. What he does and how he does it is too horrofying for that. Sure, some may empathize, but thats not what the movie tries to do.
Also. I totally empathize with the Joker in the Dark Knight. There, I see Joker as a fun anarchist and empathize with an immoral immoral sociopath killer. That means Nolan and TDK is promoting violence.
No. Its because this movie central character is the bad guy. Thats it.

SaltHarvest
SaltHarvest
reply to  amanohyo
Thu, Oct 17, 2019 8:14pm

Quick question for you: IsThomas Wayne a fascist, yes or no?

SaltHarvest
SaltHarvest
reply to  TheInkAndThePaper
Thu, Oct 17, 2019 8:13pm

Mah, they actually snuck in orange man bad.

amanohyo
amanohyo
Thu, Oct 03, 2019 2:00am

Before the bulk of the white man defense force arrives and the siege is in full effect, I want to make sure the castle looks its best. There’s a minor typo in the first caption: “I’ve also been that person have a public breakdown on mass transit…” I think the “have” was meant to be “having.”

I have nothing of value to add as I haven’t seen the movie, so I’ll just toss in a disturbing bit of trivia: Treasury Secretary and heartrendingly gorgeous sex God /s Steven Mnuchin was an executive producer on The Lego Movie, Wonder Woman, Mad Max: Fury Road, and Edge of Tomorrow proving that even Goldman Sachs bankers do a little good in the world on occasion… for profit. On the other hand, Bradley Cooper was a producer on this film showing that even charming generous actors who drive a Prius sometimes back a lame horse (for profit).

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  amanohyo
Thu, Oct 03, 2019 9:27am

Fixed the typo. Thanks.

MaryAnn Johanson
Thu, Oct 03, 2019 9:24am

I couldn’t possibly give less of a shit about the success or failure of DC.

twerking bollocks
twerking bollocks
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Fri, Oct 04, 2019 4:39pm

you clearly do since you wrote all this shit about a movie

BraveGamgee
BraveGamgee
reply to  twerking bollocks
Sat, Oct 05, 2019 7:21am

You do realize that the reason she wrote all of this about the movie is because it’s exactly how she feels about it? She loved Wonder Woman. She’s really disliked a few of the Marvel movies. If she was dedicated to bringing one studio down and another up, I feel like all of her DC reviews would be bad and all her Marvel reviews would be good, and that’s just not the case.

When she says she doesn’t care about the success or failure of DC, she means it. When she writes this review about how much she hates this particular movie, she means it. You don’t have to agree with her, but believe that she says what she means

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  twerking bollocks
Sat, Oct 05, 2019 9:54am

That’s not how film criticism works. But thanks for playing.

MaryAnn Johanson
Thu, Oct 03, 2019 9:28am

Bingo.

MaryAnn Johanson
Thu, Oct 03, 2019 9:28am

Boy, white men really hate being reminded that they aren’t special.

Mario Maroo
Mario Maroo
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Thu, Oct 03, 2019 9:59am

Unlike you of course …. boy you are something rotten aren’t you , why so hateful ?

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  Mario Maroo
Thu, Oct 03, 2019 11:37am

I know I’m not special, just another human being struggling through life. I recognize what privilege I do have, as a white Western woman, but I know how much easier my life would be were I a white man. I wouldn’t have assholes like you attacking me, for one thing.

Mario Maroo
Mario Maroo
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Thu, Oct 03, 2019 2:45pm

So world wars that forced young men back in the early 1900 somehow equates to ” privilege ” in your book ?

Divorce rates out of control alimony is paid by the vast majority by men ?.

Suicide rates 4 times the rate are committed by men.

But somehow males are privileged ?

Ok obviously bias on your part.

susmart3
susmart3
reply to  Mario Maroo
Thu, Oct 03, 2019 8:39pm

Why not just come out and say the willful and disobedient Eve forced Adam to eat the apple that ended his special paradise? And it made him look weak, because he ‘couldn’t control’ his own woman.

Mario Maroo
Mario Maroo
reply to  susmart3
Thu, Oct 03, 2019 8:48pm

Yes , that’s right , the stupid bitch should of known her place and not incur the wrath of god.

Whoever was responsible for the bible was on to something.

SaltHarvest
SaltHarvest
reply to  susmart3
Thu, Oct 17, 2019 8:20pm

It wouldn’t surprise me if Eve was into S&M

Stewart
Stewart
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Thu, Oct 03, 2019 10:14am

I don’t think any race would want to be told they are not special in a hatefully targeted way like that. However in this movie, the protagonist who you insist on pointing out seems to be of caucasian appearance even though it has nothing to do with the actual story, is indeed very special.
The actor portraying him puts on an incredible performance. Martin Scorsese isn’t the only director able to entertain. You should leave your personal bias at home if you want to give an accurate film review which you certainly haven’t done here.

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  Stewart
Thu, Oct 03, 2019 11:41am

I don’t think any race would want to be told they are not special

Check your racial privilege, dude.

hatefully targeted

Oh noes! Won’t someone think of the white men!

of caucasian appearance

LOL

even though it has nothing to do with the actual story

And this is why you fail. OF COURSE the fact that Arthur Fleck is a white man is absolutely essential to this story. The fact that neither you nor Todd Phillips seem to realize this is NOT my problem.

Martin Scorsese isn’t the only director able to entertain.

It’s true that I give positive reviews solely to movies by Scorsese. Wow, you got me there.

You should leave your personal bias at home

And of course you are nothing but coolly objective and rational, right? No bias on your part?

Fuck off.

Stewart
Stewart
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Thu, Oct 03, 2019 12:08pm

My racial privilege? Yeah I checked and it seems to have been hijacked by sjw’s like you if I ever even had it at all. It’s a good thing I’m not an actor.

It looks like someone is already thinking of the white men. Namely you and thinking of them in a negative light and for what? What are you trying to achieve by that?

A lot of people are tired of people like you trying to push this negative smear campaign against “white men”. This rhetoric has been the common theme of many movie reviewers lately as if you are all reading off the same form sheet. You’re doing your best at being fashionably offended. This is a movie about a clown with mental problems and how facing stigma and being ridiculed for that by society pushes him over the edge.
Arthur could easily be played by a black guy but he isn’t and there is nothing wrong with that so stop trying to pretend that there is.

The point is that you made a totally irrelevant comparison and chose a director with a full trophy cabinet to do it with. In doing so you yourself have taken the holier than though attitude in which you claim to be against with your racist nonsense.

So you fuck off.

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  Stewart
Thu, Oct 03, 2019 1:03pm

A lot of people are tired of people like you trying to push this negative smear campaign against “white men”

Get used to it. The dominance of white men is over.

Arthur could easily be played by a black guy

No, he couldn’t.

fashionably offended

You have no idea what is coming. No fucking idea.

Stewart
Stewart
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Fri, Oct 04, 2019 1:56am

Is that supposed to be some kind of a threat?
And why would you assume I am happy about “white dominance”. This is obviously your favourite topic.
You’re an sjw vomiting your own shit into your mouth and polluting the world. That’s all you are doing with this review.
Projecting something on to a movie which it is not.

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  Stewart
Fri, Oct 04, 2019 9:44am

s that supposed to be some kind of a threat?

I didn’t say anything about a violent feminazi uprising and bloody revolution leading to the installment of the matriarchy in February 2020. You didn’t hear that from me.

Projecting something on to a movie which it is not.

Your obliviousness is either hilarious or terrifying.

Stewart
Stewart
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Fri, Oct 04, 2019 2:20am

I hope you are smart enough to realise that in your hateful response, all you have done is prove my point back to me that your review is nothing but a racist rant directed at white people. Why you think there is anything positive about that is all in your own mind which you obviously left behind somewhere a long time ago.

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  Stewart
Fri, Oct 04, 2019 9:45am

If you think anything I’ve said here is hateful, you have no idea what hate is and have never encountered it in your life, ever.

Stewart
Stewart
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Fri, Oct 04, 2019 9:50am

Deny it all you want but it’s right there. I’m not making this shit up.

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  Stewart
Fri, Oct 04, 2019 9:53am

Snowflake.

Stewart
Stewart
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Fri, Oct 04, 2019 10:46am

Yeah! Well done! This is a huge step you have made here. admitting you have a problem is the first step. That’s exactly what you are. You should review movies you can actually handle from now on.

twerking bollocks
twerking bollocks
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Fri, Oct 04, 2019 4:42pm

wow nvm you’re actually crazy

Hugh Janus
Hugh Janus
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Sat, Oct 05, 2019 4:59pm

This very racist and hateful MaryAnn definitely needs to have sex. Preferably with a dominate White male.

amanohyo
amanohyo
reply to  Hugh Janus
Sat, Oct 05, 2019 11:23pm

Name checks out.

Just had submissive sex with chalky stud and can confirm, all entertainment products have been forever transformed into timeless masterpieces gleaming like Caucasian diamonds in the luminous afterglow.

Sex is nice and all, but to get the true Joker experience, you should really watch it as you trip on Ayahuasca and mescaline while wingsuiting down the Grand Canyon right after injecting a pot brownie suppository as a Dalek goes down on you midflight. Make sure you insert your entire face into its icy cold plunger just as the credits roll, it really brings out the finer details in the score.

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  Hugh Janus
Sun, Oct 06, 2019 12:06pm

And how would having sex with a “dominate White male” cure me of what you think ails me?

SaltHarvest
SaltHarvest
reply to  Hugh Janus
Thu, Oct 17, 2019 8:33pm

4/10 , Please do not consider a career in trolldom.

Hugh Janus
Hugh Janus
reply to  SaltHarvest
Fri, Oct 18, 2019 3:05pm

1/10 Have sex

susmart3
susmart3
reply to  Stewart
Thu, Oct 03, 2019 8:46pm

“It’s a good thing I’m not an actor.” Probably also good that your not a movie reviewer either.

You seem to think you could give an “accurate” review— whatever that means— and that you would be able to leave your “personal bias at home.”

Doesn’t seem likely, based on your comments.

Stewart
Stewart
reply to  susmart3
Fri, Oct 04, 2019 2:01am

A review is subjective the the opinion of a reviewer. However, using it to push your own political bias is not a review. That is a delusion.

Don’t assume my ability to write reviews. I could definitely do a more relevant review to the actual film than this nonsense here.
By the way, learn to mind your own business.
You will probably write some kind of triggered response but I shan’t be answering it.

susmart3
susmart3
reply to  Stewart
Fri, Oct 04, 2019 2:16am

As is an open forum, I could also advise you to “learn to mind your own business.” But I won’t, as I would be devastated if you didn’t reply back.

Sebastian Fisher
Sebastian Fisher
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Tue, Oct 08, 2019 3:34pm

Joker being white has LITERALLY nothing to do with the story though? His skin color is never brought up, skin color plays no role in the story, and unless you’re putting together your own meta-commentary in your head, Arthur is just supposed to be an incredibly lonely and down on his luck civilian. CLASS in this movie is important, RACE isn’t ever touched on.

Joker is predominantly shown as a white character in the comics, therefore they kept that in mind when casting for him. Beyond this, the plot of the story would not change at all if Arthur was black or asian instead. You seem to be implying Arthur’s race and his status as a white man is far more important to the plot structure than it actually is. What part of him being a white guy is ‘absolutely essential’ to the narrative? Would he not hallucinate? Would he not still spiral into being the Joker? Seriously, NOTHING would change unless you SPECIFICALLY changed the movie’s script to account for a race change and racial themes.

Also, I know I’ll probably already be banned from these comments because you’ve been REALLY swingin’ around that ban hammer for super innocuous comments, but hey, here’s a tip before that happens: don’t insult people, their gender or their race if you don’t want to be attacked in return. Saying ‘wow white men really don’t understand they’re not special’ and telling people to fuck off while threatening bans is no way to start any form of proper discorse. You’re being just as venomous in the comments as most other people down here.

“tHe DoMiNaNcE oF wHiTe MeN iS oVeR” like you SERIOUSLY expect people to treat you with respect down here when you keep saying shit like that?

Bluejay
Bluejay
reply to  Sebastian Fisher
Tue, Oct 08, 2019 3:58pm

CLASS in this movie is important, RACE isn’t ever touched on.

Race is ALWAYS a factor, both in the story and in how it’s received by audiences, whether or not we’re aware of it. Change the Joker to a brown Middle Eastern dude and watch the film be instantly and universally condemned for glorifying terrorism.

Tonio Kruger
Tonio Kruger
reply to  Bluejay
Tue, Oct 08, 2019 4:29pm

And yet V for Vendetta — whose title character was white — was accused by certain conservative film critics of doing just that — glorifying terrorism.

Race may always be a factor but it’s not always the ONLY factor. Otherwise, there would not be so many real-life conflicts between various members of the same race.

Of course, it also goes the other way. The first time I saw Three KIngs, I could not help wondering how many of the critics who were impressed by the Arab torturer’s big speech about American culture would have had the exact same reaction if a similar speech had been given by a Wehrmacht officer. Or to use a more recent example, if the same exact speech had been given by a Serb.

Danielm80
Danielm80
reply to  Tonio Kruger
Tue, Oct 08, 2019 4:49pm

Oh, dear God, I’m going to have to update the Bingo card to include, “Its not about RACE, it’s about CLASS,” aren’t I?

In the meantime, Sebastian gets a B1, a B2, and an O2 on the 2017 card. If we give him an honorary square for “Why don’t fish notice water?” he’s almost won a prize.

Tonio Kruger
Tonio Kruger
reply to  Danielm80
Tue, Oct 08, 2019 5:34pm

We live in a world where Hispanic non-citizens in America are considered eligible for a fast track to citizenship if they’re college-bound but Hispanic non-citizens who come over here to pick fruit or work on roofs are considered eligible for immediate deportation. Darn right it is so often about class!

But then I’m obviously biast. I still remember my late father telling me how my maternal grandmother was just fine with his dating my mother despite the fact that he was Mexican — until she found out that he lived in a poor neighborhood.

It’s not always about race, it’s not always about class, but sometimes it’s about both and sometimes it’s about either one. And willful blindness on these issues does not help matters.

I know that you and MaryAnn mean well and I’d rather not write anything that would endorse the pov of the Sebastians of the world but I hate lying.

Bluejay
Bluejay
reply to  Tonio Kruger
Tue, Oct 08, 2019 6:20pm

We live in a world where Hispanic non-citizens in America are considered eligible for a fast track to citizenship if they’re college-bound but Hispanic non-citizens who come over here to pick fruit or work on roofs are considered eligible for immediate deportation. Darn right it is so often about class!

But, Tonio, those college-bound Dreamers occupy the same class status as their parents, who came over here to pick fruit or work on roofs. So it’s not a class distinction. It’s families of the same class being torn apart. Because it’s about deporting as many brown people as possible.

Discriminating by class is often a roundabout way of achieving the real goal, which is discriminating by race. Right now the Trump administration is declaring that it won’t allow in any immigrants who can’t pay for their own healthcare. That seems like a class argument, but we all know which communities that’s going to impact the most. The de-browning of America IS THE POINT. When immigration has been successfully limited to wealthy Asian doctors, I guarantee you one hundred percent that there’ll be some justification for keeping them out too.

Race and class are often bound up together, but race is never NOT part of the equation. Class issues are differently experienced by different racial groups. And a film about a working-class homicidal white man will inevitably be written differently than a story about a working-class homicidal black or brown man (or a woman!), and received differently by the public.

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  Tonio Kruger
Tue, Oct 08, 2019 6:22pm

Hispanic non-citizens in America

Many Americans — ie, people of solely European descent — *don’t* see Hispanic people as white, whether they’re college bound or not. Including many people of Irish and Italian descent who should fucking know better (in this I include some of my own relatives) because Irish and Italian (and others of Eastern European Caucasian extraction) immigrants only gradually were “recognized” as “white.”

Race may be a cultural construction, but it is still one that is designed — CONSCIOUSLY DESIGNED — to keep people apart. It fucking sucks, and we still see it at work today… as in how incredibly educated and highly paid — ie, ostensibly upper-class — nonwhite people are still mostly treated like shit by our culture.

Tonio Kruger
Tonio Kruger
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Wed, Oct 09, 2019 1:51am

Preaching to the choir, MaryAnn.

I worked with a Korean-born boss for several years. She was one of the most efficient and hard-working persons I ever worked with. Yet when the time came for her to be promoted, she was turned down because of her “linguistic ability.”

Did she sometimes write less than perfect English? Yes, she did. I know because me and a Mexican-American co-worker –heh, irony — sometimes had to help her edit her E-mails.

On the other hand, we received E-mails all the time from white non-Hispanic supervisors that were also in dire need of editing…

And don’t get me started on the white co-worker who was a friend of one of the higher-ups — a person, who, despite accusations of sexual harassment, had to literally throw a chair at one of his supervisors before he was fired.

Anyway, I never said racism wasn’t a serious problem in the US. It’s just not the only problem.

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  Tonio Kruger
Fri, Oct 11, 2019 8:31am

Racism is at arguably at the core of many of America’s problems.

SaltHarvest
SaltHarvest
reply to  Danielm80
Thu, Oct 17, 2019 8:40pm

I’m sure your bingo card needs an intersectional update to evolve with the times. Stay woke, Dan.

Lucy Gillam
reply to  Danielm80
Sun, Nov 10, 2019 5:43pm

It’s almost like W*ll Sh*tt*rly, isn’t it? (He googles his name a lot, and shows up to be a jackass.)

SaltHarvest
SaltHarvest
reply to  Bluejay
Thu, Oct 17, 2019 8:37pm

In a way, there exists a separate version of this movie in the minds of every audience member, much in the same way a movie projected on a wall looks different from the movie shown on a television. Sounds different too, probably…

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  Sebastian Fisher
Tue, Oct 08, 2019 6:13pm

Joker being white has LITERALLY nothing to do with the story though?

You’re precious. Never change.

No, wait. Literally: Change.

the plot of the story would not change at all if Arthur was black or asian instead

You seriously think that? LOL!!!!

WHITE IS NOT NEUTRAL!

you’ve been REALLY swingin’ around that ban hammer for super innocuous comments

I really haven’t, but keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better.

“tHe DoMiNaNcE oF wHiTe MeN iS oVeR” like you SERIOUSLY expect people to treat you with respect down here when you keep saying shit like that?

Do you seriously expect people to take you seriously if you deny the dominance of white men?

SaltHarvest
SaltHarvest
reply to  Sebastian Fisher
Thu, Oct 17, 2019 8:42pm

The joker being portrayed by a white guy is straight misdirection in this flick. It obviously worked.

Lucy Gillam
reply to  Sebastian Fisher
Mon, Nov 11, 2019 1:23pm

The reason you think his being white has “literally nothing” to do with the movie is because white male is considered the default in our culture, what linguists call the “unmarked form.” We think of how they act and how people treat them as either “normal” or just about them as an individual. But no one asks how the way Harley Quinn is written/depicted/treated in the story has anything to do with her being a woman. To jump franchises, no one suggests that race has nothing to do with Luke Cage’s story.
Casting the Joker as Black would change everything. It would change what he expects out of life. It would change the way other people treat him badly, and the responses to his actions. I understand that many white men can’t see that, because they’ve been treated as individuals and default humans all your lives, but the rest of us are very, very aware of how things like race, gender, sexual orientation/identity affect our lives and change our stories.

SaltHarvest
SaltHarvest
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Thu, Oct 17, 2019 8:22pm

It is in no way essential, just absolutely hilarious on this side of the 4th wall mirror.

Oracle
Oracle
Thu, Oct 03, 2019 9:50am

I think I knew something was wrong from the moment I read that you were biased in favor of nothing, and in opposition to nothing. Your writing style does not paint you as a milquetoast fence sitter, and I believe your precognitive hysteria will be utterly meaningless, but I apologized for.

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  Oracle
Thu, Oct 03, 2019 11:33am

Delicious word salad! Thanks for supplying today’s lunch.

Oracle
Oracle
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Thu, Oct 03, 2019 12:58pm

You’re quite welcome! I earnestly did not expect such a polite and charming response for a low-engagement commenter who was directed to your article from the chrome recommendations homepage. I’ve heard from other reviewers that this is a movie about access to health care and income inequality. Do you have any input regarding those themes?

susmart3
susmart3
reply to  Oracle
Thu, Oct 03, 2019 8:49pm

Hope you gave those reviewers a piece of your mind, too. Don’t hide your light under a bushel.

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  Oracle
Sat, Oct 05, 2019 10:18am

I’ve heard from other reviewers that this is a movie about access to health care and income inequality

Have you read my review? I mention those aspects, but the movie is not *about* those things. Those things are what I am referring with to this: “whatever-the-hell he thinks gives him cover for indulging male rage as a sorry-not-sorry *wink* response to an unreasonable world.”

Lucy Gillam
reply to  Oracle
Sun, Nov 10, 2019 11:05pm

Barbara Gordon would like for you to stop attaching her name to your views.

Michiel Deinema
Michiel Deinema
Thu, Oct 03, 2019 11:51am

Ahw, I hoped this one would be awesome :(

thomskis
thomskis
reply to  Michiel Deinema
Fri, Oct 04, 2019 8:55pm

I thought it was, but who am I? :-)

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  thomskis
Sat, Oct 05, 2019 9:57am

Indeed: Who are you? Why should we take your word on this, or on anything else? Why don’t you tell us what you thought was awesome about the movie?

thomskis
thomskis
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Sat, Oct 05, 2019 10:35am

The central performance, the perfect realisation of that time, the perfectly executed violence – sickening, as it should be, the personal identification (without ever condoning), the Scorsese references (I know that’s a sore point for you).

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  thomskis
Sun, Oct 06, 2019 12:10pm

Please do tell us your memories of 1981 New York. Were you around then? (We cannot make any decision about who you are because you’ve hidden your Disqus history. Coward.)

You personally identify with this character? Okay, that’s terrifying. But let’s give you the benefit of any doubt here: If identifying with this character is required to consider the movie “awesome,” do you concede that anyone who does NOT identify with the character might not find it awesome?

Why the hell would Scorsese references be a sore point for me? I love many of his films. *Goodfellas* is one of my most favorite films. What the fuck are you talking about… and do you intend that such a comment should make others trust your opinion more?

thomskis
thomskis
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Sun, Oct 06, 2019 1:19pm

And you are blocked. Utterly unhinged.

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  thomskis
Sun, Oct 06, 2019 8:39pm

You’re blocking me? On my web site?

Bwahahahahahaha!

thomskis
thomskis
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Sun, Oct 06, 2019 8:41pm

Humorless too? Ah MaryAnn, God love you :-)

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  thomskis
Sun, Oct 06, 2019 8:46pm

You were joking? It’s impossible to tell anymore.

thomskis
thomskis
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Thu, Oct 24, 2019 6:16pm

I was 10 years old in Dundee in 1981 and it had quite as many ghettos, misery and sanitation issues as the 1981 NYC portrayed here.

In terms of identification, if you have never experienced any episodes of acute loneliness, isolation or mental illness in your life then I guess well done and congratulations.

I was referring to the fact that you got riled about the constant comparisons between this movie and Scorsese’s oeuvre as you clearly do not feel that Joker is worthy of the comparison. I felt that this was obvious but am happy to clarify.

You will note that I managed to answer your questions with some manners, with no need to swear for cheap emphasis and without generally acting like a crazy person.

thomskis
thomskis
reply to  thomskis
Thu, Oct 24, 2019 6:24pm

MaryAnn, I hope you can find time to watch this piece on the negative media reaction to Joker. I am sure that you will take issue with the argument on causality (as do I) but the guy makes some pretty salient points in my opinion. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kp1pUImNaz0

amanohyo
amanohyo
reply to  thomskis
Fri, Oct 25, 2019 3:51pm

The video’s main points are:

1) The mainstream media wants Joker to fail financially or to inspire a violent event so that it fails

2) When a person breaks down and embraces anarchy and violence, a lack of compassion in their social environment is just as responsible as the choices of the individual.

3) The mainstream media are responsible for creating this social environment, and the movie portrays them as the true villain.

4) The mainstream media see themselves being blamed for the creation of violent individuals in the film, so they want Joker to fail or inspire a violent event.

This is a circular way to structure an argument. At its emotional core, the video is identical to most internet comments (including this one): “People don’t like something I like, so I will find a way to rationalize why they are acting irrationally.” By attacking the purportedly irrational Mainstream Media, he’s doing a some mirror destroying of his own. Let’s look at each point:

1) The video acknowledges briefly, then glosses over the fact that there are exceptions to its characterization of the mainstream media’s response to the film. They are not a monolithic, unified entity – even the headlines he cherrypicks have a broad range of takes.

Rather than a coordinated assault, a simpler explanation is that the clickbait driven film press took the path of least resistance by tying the film to hotbutton issues like sex, violence, and race. Given the content of the film (or lack thereof), there weren’t many other angles to choose from.

The only thing we can say for certain about the mainstream media as a whole is that they want something interesting, relatable, and tragic to happen at regular intervals, period. Fear, tragedy, spectacle, and violence are how CNN and Fox News make their money. Most of them are not evil, they just need eyeballs to make money, and humans are naturally curious about horrible things happening to other humans. The mainstream media wants nothing more than for people to endlessly hop from one schadenfreudaliscious news nugget to the next like a kid eating free samples at Cosco trapped in a boundless maze of brands and slogans.

2) This vague assertion is a truism that no one but solipsists and the NRA would deny – everyone understands that almost all crimes are due in part to social pressures and the lack of a social safety net, and are not purely spur of the moment actions performed by disconnected psychopaths. The important question is, how does the movie go about revealing this truth?

3) For the most part, big money likes the status quo because the status quo is what allowed them to amass power and wealth. To the extent that large media outlets are tools of big money, they would prefer a movie that does not incite social unrest or genuine political revolution. However, Parasite, a movie that addresses class issues more boldly has received high praise from mainstream outlets. Get Out, a movie that was fairly blunt in its handling of race also received glowing mainstream praise, and if the status quo wasn’t worried about those films or shows like Black Mirror or The Handmaid’s Tale, it has little to fear from one more angry white antihero in a film that has very little to say on issues of class or race (I did notice an adversarial relationship to black women in the trailers, but if that pattern holds in the rest of the movie, it would reinforce the status quo)

4) This is the Jungian crux of his argument – the mainstream media has seen their own dark reflection in the movie and have chosen to destroy it for revealing a truth that they don’t want to acknowledge. I’m not saying it’s completely false – there may be a grain of truth to it for a few reviewers, but a simpler and more reasonable explanation is that media outlets needed a way to get eyeballs and cursors on articles about a rated R comic book movie, so they went with what works – fear, sex, violence. tragedy.

When the movie was a success, they saw more dollar signs, and did everything they could to maintain controversy to generate clicks, as the maker of this video is doing. Large companies want to sell merch and family friendly Marvel movies are a broadly appealing gravy train, so they tend to get more favorable treatment on average than a one and done rated R flick. I see no evidence of a broad media conspiracy, just people trying to grab some eyeballs, make a buck, and maintain their death grip on the top rung of the ladder – just business as usual, this video included.

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  thomskis
Sun, Oct 27, 2019 10:05am

“Why the media NEEDED Joker to fail”?

No thank you.

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  thomskis
Sun, Oct 27, 2019 10:03am

In terms of identification, if you have never experienced any episodes of acute loneliness, isolation or mental illness in your life then I guess well done and congratulations.

Almost everyone experiences, at some point, loneliness and isolation, if not also mental illness. That still does not mean we can identify with Arthur.

You are making the same mistake as Hollywood: the experience of white men is NOT universal. The rest of us have to ignore enormous elements of our own experiences in order to suspend our disbelief and identify with a white male protagonist for at least the length of a movie. This movie asks too much of us, and I, at least, cannot go there with this movie.

thomskis
thomskis
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Sun, Oct 27, 2019 9:17pm

That’s absolutely fair enough. Thank you.

Jim Mann
Jim Mann
Thu, Oct 03, 2019 1:13pm

What a strange analysis of why recent DC movies have overall been failures (with the exception of Wonder Woman, which was very good and made money and Aquaman, which was at least entertaining and made money). They followed the formula of Christopher Nolan’s very successful and positively reviewed Batman trilogy and therefore they failed? To be fair, there is a grain of truth there, but it’s not the Nolan influence: it’s the Frank Miller influence, which can work applied to Batman but falls flat applied to Superman. But Nolan’s films were well directed, mostly well written, and well acted. Superman, Batman v. Superman, and Justice League weren’t particularly well written or well directed, and some of the acting was just strange (Jessie Eisenberg was easily the worst Lex Luthor ever).

But also Marvel didn’t succeed by following the formula of the older, non-MCU Marvel movies. They succeeded by a combination of good writing and good performances, combined with a willingness to take their time building the universe.

Edd
Edd
reply to  Jim Mann
Mon, Oct 07, 2019 10:51am

Good writing? Marvel movies? You You mean “simple writing”? Good? At what?

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  Edd
Tue, Oct 08, 2019 12:45pm

Give it a rest with the Marvel bashing.

Edd
Edd
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Tue, Oct 08, 2019 7:40pm

Yeah today is the last day I even click on the site. A rest indeed

Dr. Rocketscience
Dr. Rocketscience
reply to  Edd
Wed, Oct 09, 2019 1:06am

comment image

TheGameroomBlitz
TheGameroomBlitz
Thu, Oct 03, 2019 4:52pm

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Geez, look at all these comments.

bronxbee
bronxbee
reply to  TheGameroomBlitz
Fri, Oct 04, 2019 3:43pm

hahaha… i like that.

Ryan Tillett
Ryan Tillett
Thu, Oct 03, 2019 11:39pm

This review is garbage, most of it has nothing to do with the movie, but basically, is instead a hit piece on “evil white males rawr”. As a Black male, that has in fact been black his entire life, and indeed had very aggressive racial disputes with my fair share of people (not just whites, many other races are just as racist, sexist, homophobic, and prejudice, if not more), I would like to say that I am getting tired of this “white man bad”, “toxic masculinity”, “sjw/pc culture” nonsense!!

This is an origin story of one of the most iconic villains in the history of literature. Yes, there are things that happen that make the viewer sympathize with him, these are the things that need to be shown to give a true sense of descent into his despair, but with sprinkles of eerie nuisances emitting an uneasy feeling of his mental collapse into madness.

Please read up on the character next time before producing such an unrelated, blatant hate speech, sexist driven piece of disrespectful trash.

I’m not a big comic book fan nor do I fancy Joaquin Phoenix all that much as an actor, but I understand the basic material to see what the film is trying to portray! Where the hell were you people when Ledger’s Joker was blowing up hospitals, slamming faces through pencils, killing people with a smile on his face, inspiring hundreds of thousands of Joker imitators? Better yet, where was the feminist neo nazi outrage and personal attacks on Jared Leto with his portrayal of a domestically abusive pimp Joker? Oh yeah, you all praised how great they were (Ledger deserved the praise in all fairness, Leto’s portrayal was distasteful imo).

Fact of the matter is that all this outrage culture nonsense is exhausting and is destructive to all mediums of entertainment. Stop being nazis and let art be art, no wants their experiences dictated by a bunch of control freaks!!

FIN

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  Ryan Tillett
Fri, Oct 04, 2019 9:48am

I would like to say that I am getting tired of this “white man bad”, “toxic masculinity”

I’m tired of it too. I wish the world would abolish these things.

Where the hell were you people when Ledger’s Joker was blowing up hospitals, slamming faces through pencils, killing people with a smile on his face, inspiring hundreds of thousands of Joker imitators? Better yet, where was the feminist neo nazi outrage and personal attacks on Jared Leto with his portrayal of a domestically abusive pimp Joker?

There was plenty of outrage in both cases. Where the hell were you?

FIN

LOL.

Ryan Tillett
Ryan Tillett
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Fri, Oct 04, 2019 5:30pm

So apparently you don’t pay attention to pop culture and how it impacts our society. Typical woke journalist

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  Ryan Tillett
Sat, Oct 05, 2019 9:58am

Dude, paying attention to pop culture and writing about how it impacts our society is literally what I have been doing here for the past 22 years.

Edd
Edd
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Sun, Oct 06, 2019 7:21am

there wasn’t, there isn’t, outrage for Heath Ledger’s joker.

It was a different society. That movie made today may have similar reactions than the Joker movie.

But at that time, everybody just loved that movie and that was it.

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  Edd
Sun, Oct 06, 2019 12:18pm

Edd, honey: I am not your Internet mommy. Use the Google. It is there for a reason.

Edd
Edd
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Mon, Oct 07, 2019 10:37am

I was alive then. I saw she movie. I dont neef google to know it was praised as a game changer for comic book movies, with almost everybody praising everything about it (even when it was/is a straight right wing wing conservative movie)

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  Edd
Mon, Oct 07, 2019 10:42am

If you want to understand why it’s not reasonable to compare Ledger’s Joker to this movie, start here:

https://filmotomy.com/film-road-to-halloween-joker-2019/

Christ, you’re obstinate. There were lots of complaints about the darkness of Ledger’s Joker:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/film/film-news/5617855/Dark-Knight-sparks-more-complaints-than-any-other-film.html

And never mind the outrage when Ledger was cast! Fanboys went ballistic.

And now I am DONE doing your Googling for you.

Edd
Edd
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Tue, Oct 08, 2019 6:14am

About the Daniel Joyaux piece. Its not bad. But first of all: didnt all the insane amount of American shootings happened BEFORE the movie Joker? Like, for years?
Second: Literally, the majority of people loves TDKnight BECAUSE of the terrorist Joker. Think about that. Joker was the bad guy there, and people wanted him to win because how amazing his jokes and performances and smart his philosophy was. How is that better?
After that, all the politics about “incells white man” are fair, I guess. But like I said, you and plenty of americans are against a movie about a villain. Otherwise, this movie made it as great as it could be done.
Four and last: you helped with the googling. Very few people hated on TDK, and critics LOVED IT (after all, it is a conservative film that justify the lost liberties of civilians in the fight against terrorists). So you cant use the very few critics and compared it with the Joker outrage.

Danielm80
Danielm80
reply to  Edd
Tue, Oct 08, 2019 10:30am

Your sense of resignation makes me a little sad. There was violence in the world before Joker came out, just as there was bigotry before Charlottesville, but that doesn’t mean we’re justified in feeding it. The world is full of art and literature about seductive villains (see: Milton), but this particular work of art makes it a bit too easy for actual villains to see themselves as glorious rebels.

We can throw up our hands and say, “When people are really determined, there’s nothing we can do to stop them,” or we can speak up about films like this—even if they’re made with a certain amount of technical skill. In fact, speaking up is kind of a job requirement for critics of pop culture, like MaryAnn.

Films can create compelling villains and still make an effective argument against their point of view, as The Dark Knight did. (MaryAnn discussed that at length in her review of the movie.) And when people disagree with each other online, we can continue to trade nasty insults, or we can try to make the Internet just a little bit kinder.

Edd
Edd
reply to  Danielm80
Tue, Oct 08, 2019 7:39pm

Well. I dont get your point. I only know that I wanted the Joker to win in TDK, an ultra conservative movie.
On this one? I wanted Joker to get caught because he’s just terrible.

Thats what I saw onscreen. A victim past the point of redemption (Joker) and a fun/smart/attractive/seductive/strong terrorist (The Dark Knight).

Whos more dangerous?
Im not sure.

Tonio Kruger
Tonio Kruger
reply to  Edd
Wed, Oct 09, 2019 2:00am

Did you also root for Hans Gruber in Die Hard?

Mandy H
Mandy H
Fri, Oct 04, 2019 1:18am

I honestly don’t understand this fascination people have with violent killers in general, whether it’s fictional characters or violent killers in real life. There’s really nothing “deep” or mysterious to explore here. They’re not misunderstood, tormented souls (or not more so than people who, y’know, DON’T go around murdering). They’re just shitty people who feel entitled to kill. That’s it. What’s so interesting about that? They’re not “strong” characters, they’re literally the opposite, giving in to their basest impulses. And they’re so very, very common. The news is full of killers. We get to see a whole lot of “backstories”. At this point, is there really anything worth exploring? Evil is actually pretty damn mundane.

…. Maybe it’s just my emotional exhaustion speaking, but I’ll be quite glad when this particular trend of edgy gritty villain-sympathizing films goes out of style.

Edd
Edd
reply to  Mandy H
Sun, Oct 06, 2019 7:19am

You mean a trend that started like… who knows when?

What is fascinating about a violent killer?

Why? If we live in a more or less civilized society, if he got education, access and all his basic needs covered, why would he enjoy violence in such evil ways?

It is fascinating, because we are freaking scared of the incapability of not ever producing them as societies, and/or recognize them before they kill/do evil.

…And evil is not pretty damn mundane. If that would be the case, you would probably be dead already. Actually, evil is freaking rare. The elite 1% is pretty much evil, and from there, really not as common as you say. Maybe you SHOULD BE obssessed with it and try understand it a bit more

Oldwen1120 [INACTIVE}
Oldwen1120 [INACTIVE}
Fri, Oct 04, 2019 3:31am

I feel like with Phillips making a proudly apolitical movie (the joker explicitly says “I’m not political”), the movie misses out on a lot of ideas that it could explore, and turns a potentially interesting character study into a mushy mess.
I’m not sure if it’s a left-wing or right-wing movie, which is a problem.

Karen Nielsen
Karen Nielsen
reply to  Oldwen1120 [INACTIVE}
Fri, Oct 04, 2019 9:36am

Apolitical means that it doesn’t take a political stance–it’s neither left-leaning nor right-leaning. But if it were to be between the two I’d say it leans right, for no other reason than the unpleasant rage of this writer. She wonders why this website is doing so badly? Here’s a hint: people don’t read FILM REVIEWS to be lectured on politics. If a film’s merit or “goodness” only comes from it’s message being progressive, then that has two outcomes:

– A HUGE percentage of people (with different views) will not be interested in viewing this site
– Furthermore, another significant chunk of people, who want to read a film review (and not a politically biased, propagandistic, sputtering fulmination) will also be utterly uninterested. Propaganda alienates.

And then what are we left with? Well, there’s really not much going on at this site–the commenters appear to always be the same people and the only time a review garners many comments is when it is linked to 4chan and trolls come urinate in the comment section.

Wake up and smell the coffee.

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  Karen Nielsen
Fri, Oct 04, 2019 9:53am

A HUGE percentage of people (with different views) will not be interested in viewing this site

Great. They should go elsewhere. There’s plenty of wishy-washy “criticism” available for them to read and instantly forget.

Tonio Kruger
Tonio Kruger
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Sat, Oct 05, 2019 10:19pm

There are even *gasp!* conservative film review sites — sites that can be found with a quick Google search.

Davy Jones
Davy Jones
reply to  Karen Nielsen
Fri, Oct 04, 2019 9:15pm

Although to be fair to the reviewer, she did gave a ***** review to a movie about a home-schooling, dinner-praying white christian family (with a pregnant and barefoot wife cooking, cleaning and stepping on nails while manly man hubby build things) whose traditonal values and way of life, freedom of expression, english-speaking abilities and physical safety were threatened by dark-skinned alien invaders. And she did gave a **** rating to Manchester By The Sea, the most insidiously misogynistic white male persecution fantasy I’ve even seen on screen. I can think of many other problematic movies (from a progressive point-of-view) that came out over the last couple of years rated very positively on this site (with or without review): Bushwick, Steven Sodersbergh’s Unsane, Don’t Breathe (three movies using the threat of rape of a white woman by an ”other” as a stakes-raiser – black man, mentally ill man, blind man, respectively), The Purge series, 3 Billboards Outside E. M., The John Wick movies, Green Book, Bohemian Rhapsody, to name a few. So the feminist nazi accusations launched at this reviewer by the trolls have never made a lot of sense to me.

Many reviewers analyse movies through a political lens as they should: movies are political in nature, reflecting social issues, promoting values and transmitting ideology. I just don’t think this reviewer, compared to Slate’s Inkoo Kang or Film Freak Central’s Walter Chaw for example, analyses movies through a progressive lens in a consistent manner, although I’m glad that she tries at least.

Karen Nielsen
Karen Nielsen
reply to  Davy Jones
Sat, Oct 05, 2019 7:37am

I checked her Patreon page out and it explicitly says that she is “Starting to dabble in fiction that people who like my criticism (geeky, feminist, progressive) might enjoy.”

Straight from the horse’s mouth; analyzing films from the POV of a progressive feminist. I don’t have the time or energy to link you to all the reviews on here that portray this (even though they pretty much all do, one way or the other), but I do suggest you read her review of Halloween (2018). It’s 20% about the film and 80% about lecturing people on PROPER FEMINISM. Definitions on feminism are so wildly different nowadays; I have no clue who the arbiter of what PROPER FEMINISM actually is is supposed to be; but a site that posits to have gotten it right will alienate MANY people, FEMINISTS included.

I’ll give MAJ this, she is *very* brave to have such a limited positioning statment, and her website has definitely spoken to a certain demographic (hence, all the viewers who seem to be the same commenters over and over again); but–from a data analyst perspective–unless that certain demographic grows; this site, I’d say is in terrible danger. This isn’t just film criticism; this is a CERTAIN TYPE of film criticism that has a very limited appeal. That coupled with how harshly worded some of her reviews are (see: Captain Marvel). They’re worded like holier-than-thou lectures. Example: “superpowered female SJW invites manbaby nerds to suck it” & “Which is what makes her better than you, you whiny crybabies, and you know it, and that’s why you hate her.” Naturally, people would not want to be spoken to like that. MAJ constantly complains that men are are rude to her, yet seems to exhibit this same kind of behavior herself.

Anyway, that’s just some food for thought. If I’ve been unfair or inaccurate, do let me know.

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  Karen Nielsen
Sat, Oct 05, 2019 10:00am

analyzing films from the POV of a progressive feminist

Proudly.

But now that we know that you think people should modulate what they say in order to be popular with certain crowds, why should we take anything you say at face value? You’re most likely just saying it to appeal to a demographic you think you need to appeal to.

Karen Nielsen
Karen Nielsen
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Sat, Oct 05, 2019 5:45pm

I’m not telling you to stop what you’re doing. I applaud the bravery, and I do hope your message impacts more people. Good luck.

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  Karen Nielsen
Sun, Oct 06, 2019 12:22pm

True! You only said I should stop what I’m doing if I actually want people to read what I’m writing.

Lucy Gillam
reply to  Karen Nielsen
Sun, Nov 10, 2019 11:28pm

analyzing films from the POV of a progressive feminist.

Yes. That is why some of us come here.

F.T.
F.T.
reply to  Davy Jones
Fri, Dec 17, 2021 2:10pm

That sure does sound like one hell of a deranged and psychotic way to sum-up MANCHESTER BY THE SEA.

Lucy Gillam
reply to  Karen Nielsen
Sun, Nov 10, 2019 11:23pm

I myself enjoy film reviews that acknowledge and examine the sociopolitical aspects of movies. There are plenty of other reviewers for people who don’t.

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  Oldwen1120 [INACTIVE}
Fri, Oct 04, 2019 9:50am

the joker explicitly says “I’m not political”)

Yeah, white men often think that. They often think they’re rational and objective, too. That doesn’t make any of it true.

Oldwen1120 [INACTIVE}
Oldwen1120 [INACTIVE}
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Fri, Oct 04, 2019 2:38pm

I agree, and I don’t think Phillips realizes that.

The movie sets Joker up at the beginning as a kind of accidental leftist hero, where Clown ANTIFA are bravely protesting against injustice, but taking the mantle of a deeply flawed, villainous character. That’s a good idea. But then the end implies that Clown ANTIFA are bad, and a huge amount of Gotham starts rioting in the streets and cheering for Joker, so I guess we’re supposed to think they’re bad? Is that what Phillips thought of the protesters the whole time, that they’re no better than the rich that oppress them after spending 90 minutes seemingly saying the opposite?

Like the cops are shown as rude and dismissive, too protective of the system, and then they shoot an innocent man. But then we’re supposed to feel bad for Clown ANTIFA beating them up? I feel like I couldn’t tell whether this is a left-wing or right-wing movie, which is bad when so many political themes are set up and then explored poorly.

Edd
Edd
reply to  Oldwen1120 [INACTIVE}
Sun, Oct 06, 2019 7:11am

you can feel whatever you want. What you feel? Do you feel bad for the cops that protect the “haves” against the “have nots” or you don’t feel bad for them?

Why the movie has to tell how to feel about things?
It’s WEIRD and weak.

As a communist, 99.9% of the movies aren’t representing how I think and feel about things..

SO what? I still feel and think for myself..

Oldwen1120 [INACTIVE}
Oldwen1120 [INACTIVE}
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Fri, Oct 04, 2019 2:40pm

So I personally think that Fleck, in this movie, does not act in a political motivation, and acts in his own self-interest, and he acknowledges this when he says “I’m not political.” But Phillips realizes the… politicality? of his actions, and personally chooses to not take a stance.

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  Oldwen1120 [INACTIVE}
Sat, Oct 05, 2019 10:01am

Not taking a stance supports the status quo. Which is a taking a stance after all.

Edd
Edd
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Mon, Oct 07, 2019 10:48am

Literally 99.9% of Hollywood movies. Wheres the surprise?

Edd
Edd
reply to  Oldwen1120 [INACTIVE}
Mon, Oct 07, 2019 10:48am

Exactly. Do you think Todd Phillips is che Guevera or something?

thomskis
thomskis
Fri, Oct 04, 2019 8:04pm

Saw it this morning and definitely my film of the year. Can see why people could have problems with it, but I just love that early 80s aesthetic. Also probably identified a little too closely with the character. Doesn’t mean that I put him on a pedestal by any means. Maybe I’m just a sucker for broken toys?

susmart3
susmart3
Sat, Oct 05, 2019 3:09am

“I was a reviewer once, and i swear, it’s because self righteous twat like this writer i lost interest in writing”

So other people’s writing made you not want to write. Because you couldn’t write as badly as they did? If you were any good at writing would would have probably continued.

PrivatePyle
PrivatePyle
reply to  susmart3
Sat, Oct 05, 2019 9:15am

You are very good at making assumptions i recon. I mainly stopped because i sensed other reviewers mainly got caught in the hype of dragging politics, gender issues and politically correct topics into reviews about movies that clearly didn’t need to be viewed through a lens of a preconceived higher moral ground. I wrote from a viewpoint of love and passion for the art, and didn’t feel the need to project my personal ideology and worldviews. Also, i wouldn’t claim to be a better writer, just more topical instead of dragging in external bullshit to make a pretentious point.

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  PrivatePyle
Sat, Oct 05, 2019 10:05am

You think I don’t have “love and passion for the art”? I promise you, I wouldn’t have kept this up so long if I didn’t.

Maybe you “didn’t feel the need to project my personal ideology and worldviews” because the vast majority of movies already reflect those things? And if they didn’t, why the hell WOULDN’T you want to such your ideology and worldviews reflected in popular culture?

Politics is NOT “external bullshit.” Social issues are NOT “external bullshit.” The need for diverse representation onscreen is NOT “external bullshit.”

susmart3
susmart3
reply to  PrivatePyle
Sat, Oct 05, 2019 12:00pm

Note the difference between your previous post, calling this reviewer “a self righteous twat” and this more useful one where you actually explained you own views instead.

PrivatePyle
PrivatePyle
reply to  susmart3
Sat, Oct 05, 2019 2:26pm

I can’t argue with that. You’re right, i could have made my point in a more constructive and non combative way. It was probably the fifth negative review i’ve read about this movie, but the first where i had the ability to make a comment about it. Well, live and learn, i stand humbeled

Stacy Livitsanis
Stacy Livitsanis
Sat, Oct 05, 2019 3:16am

Todd Phillips’ first film was a documentary about GG Allin, a performer noted for smearing himself with his own shit and throwing it at audiences, who went eager to see exactly that. Would drawing a metaphorical parallel to his later work be too on the nose?

Edd
Edd
reply to  Stacy Livitsanis
Sun, Oct 06, 2019 7:06am

So. Nobody that did something weak in the past can do a better job ever again?

What kind of logic is that?

Stacy Livitsanis
Stacy Livitsanis
reply to  Edd
Sun, Oct 06, 2019 2:20pm

I didn’t actually say anything about the quality of Phillips’ first film (Hated: GG Allin and the Murder Junkies), and in fact I think it’s more interesting than Joker, although both utterly pale next to Penelope Spheeris’ Suburbia as a sensitive, intelligent and compelling portrait of alienation and anti-culture nihilism. The key word was ‘metaphorical’, as in most of Phillips’ films are metaphorically similar to what GG Allin often did on stage.

I’m more than willing to give a film-maker whose previous work I don’t like a chance. Louis Letterier hadn’t directed anything of any value whatsoever, then he goes and directs all ten episodes of Dark Crystal: Age of Resistance, one of the most astonishing, wonderful, beautifully made, progressive, politically conscious pieces of art I’ve ever seen (sure, Letterier was hardly the only creative voice on that show, but he did a phenomenal job directing it). Even with Todd Phillips’ back catalogue of reprehensible dudebro comedies that are anything but irreverent (since when has upholding the status-quo been ‘edgy?’), he could still have made a good film with Joker. I just don’t think he did.

Edd
Edd
reply to  Stacy Livitsanis
Mon, Oct 07, 2019 10:26am

Pointless. I was talking about your logic, not not your movies opinions.

Edd
Edd
Sat, Oct 05, 2019 7:52am

This is what happens when you already have an opinion and a take before the movie is even made.

The movie not only doesn’t glorify violence, it clear shows it in horrifyng ways, without music, without one liners, without any fun around it. The violence (the extreme violence, because there are different portrayals of violence) is always overreactions from a, literally,mentally ill man.

Literally the movie calls out people like the reviewer here, that can’t see a person and its context, because it is so into their own ideas of what life should be, lacking any empathy for anything other than people that agrees 100% with them.

But I love batman v Superman so what the eff I know…

Mario Maroo
Mario Maroo
reply to  Edd
Sat, Oct 05, 2019 9:35am

Well said bro.

Edd
Edd
reply to  Mario Maroo
Sun, Oct 06, 2019 3:04am

Sometimes the so called progressists react like the old grandpas. It’s weird.

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  Edd
Sun, Oct 06, 2019 12:28pm

I’m an “old grandpa”? I will say this: That’s a new one.

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  Edd
Sat, Oct 05, 2019 10:09am

This is what happens when you already have an opinion and a take before the movie is even made.

Nope. Wrong. I want to love every movie.

a, literally,mentally ill man

Mentally ill people are infinitely more likely to be the victims of violence than the perpetrators of it. But thank you for pointing out that yet another movie slanders the mentally ill in this way.

lacking any empathy for anything other than people that agrees 100% with them.

Are you one of those people who thinks that a dedication to tolerance must include tolerating intolerance? Cuz it doesn’t.

Edd
Edd
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Sun, Oct 06, 2019 3:03am

arthur fleck was a victim of violence.. like his whole life… I don’t get it. Exactly, Mentally ill people tends to be victims, like Arthur Fleck… in this movie.

And No. I don’t think Nazis should have the liberty to hate (and of course nobody else). They lost the ability to be respected to express their “opinions” (pure hate).

You are just not watching the movie. The movie is about a mentally ill person that WE (me included) leave alone, don’t care about, mistreat.

In this case, ends in this horrible tragedy and he becomes awful and after he starts to use violence, the empathy stops there. He loses that benefit.

I don’t. I honestly think you are against this type of movie, regardless of anything else. That’s close minded, which the defacto Right wing attitude (which I usually despise). We, the left, should mantain the high moral ground. We are better, because we think about things, not just repeat conservatives speeches that our fathers/mothers forced on us.

But that’s just me.

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  Edd
Sun, Oct 06, 2019 12:30pm

I honestly think you are against this type of movie

What is “this type of movie,” and why do you think I’m “against” it?

Edd
Edd
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Mon, Oct 07, 2019 10:33am

A movie about a villain. Because you have little to say say about the movie and a lot about the political implications of the movie being made, while not even talking about things the movie show

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  Edd
Tue, Oct 08, 2019 12:50pm

I’ve given positive reviews to plenty of movies about bad people, violent people, criminal people.

Tonio Kruger
Tonio Kruger
reply to  Edd
Sun, Oct 06, 2019 6:38pm

Edd, identifying with the Left while writing the type of comments you’ve written here isn’t doing the Left any favors.

Edd
Edd
reply to  Tonio Kruger
Mon, Oct 07, 2019 10:33am

Im part of the real left. Not the capitalist left from USA, Kruger.

Tonio Kruger
Tonio Kruger
reply to  Edd
Mon, Oct 07, 2019 5:13pm

Whatever. I have no love for Communism or the left, anyway, so I find your distinctions to be at best academic.

In any event, your words and your tone aren’t making your own cause look good.

And yes, I know. You don’t care what I think.

Edd
Edd
reply to  Tonio Kruger
Tue, Oct 08, 2019 5:42am

So if you dont like the left and Im making the left look bad, whats your problem again? You are bored or something?

Tonio Kruger
Tonio Kruger
reply to  Edd
Wed, Oct 09, 2019 5:17pm

Perhaps the fact that you’re using your political bonafides to justify dissing MaryAnn, Bluejay and other posters on this site?

MaryAnn Johanson
Sat, Oct 05, 2019 10:02am

I was a reviewer once, and i swear, it’s because self righteous twat like this writer i lost interest in writing

Wow, such power the likes of I have!

MaryAnn Johanson
Sat, Oct 05, 2019 10:10am

I am thisclose to bringing down the hammer on the abusers and the assholes here. Unless you are able to comment on the film and on my review like an adult, you will be banned.

Phunkee Monkee
Phunkee Monkee
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Sat, Oct 05, 2019 11:03am

Personally, I’d ban anyone using crude insults like b!tch or c!nt. If they can’t make their points without resorting to that sort of vulgarity then I doubt that they have any substantive points to make.

David_Conner
David_Conner
reply to  Phunkee Monkee
Sat, Oct 05, 2019 5:12pm

Well chosen profanity has its place, but I can’t really see a downside to outright banning this type of gendered profane personal attack language.

Danielm80
Danielm80
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Sun, Oct 06, 2019 8:45pm

I can think of only two reasons not to delete the nastier comments:

(1.) You’ve set up an online swear jar, and you’re making a ton of money.

(2.) You’re holding on to people’s personal information in case someone does shoot up a theatre.

Other than that, I can’t see how the trolls are adding anything meaningful to the conversation.

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  Danielm80
Sun, Oct 06, 2019 8:48pm

It reminds everyone how much abuse outspoken opinionated women have to put up with.

zak1
zak1
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Fri, Oct 11, 2019 5:58am

It’s amazing that some of these horrific and abusive comments you get aren’t automatically blocked by Disqus

And at the same time, comments that are sincere, carefully considered, and respectful (and abiding by your Bingo protocols) get flagged as ‘spam’

This just happened to me – probably some system error?

Danielm80
Danielm80
reply to  zak1
Fri, Oct 11, 2019 8:37am

A lengthy comment with no paragraph breaks will get flagged as spam.

On some websites (though, fortunately, not this one), Disqus will automatically block a post that contains curse words. Other than that, though, the software isn’t a human being and isn’t smart enough to figure out which comments are abusive. MaryAnn has to do that herself, and she often chooses to leave the worst ones up, so people can see just how badly outspoken women like her are treated on the internet.

zak1
zak1
reply to  Danielm80
Fri, Oct 11, 2019 9:01am

Thanks for the info – I swear, I don’t know how she puts up with it.

I do hope my comment gets de-flagged (I did use paragraph breaks). I mentioned her brilliant review of Dark Knight, and tried to consider this new film in relation to some fascinating points she’d raised about Heath Ledger’s Joker. You might want to check out that earlier article

Bluejay
Bluejay
reply to  zak1
Fri, Oct 11, 2019 12:26pm

I read your original comment, and I agree it shouldn’t have been flagged.

I haven’t seen this film, but from everything that’s been said about it I think there’s a significant difference between this and The Dark Knight: Nolan doesn’t position the Joker as the moral center of that film. As MaryAnn’s review of TDK points out, Ledger’s Joker isn’t humanized, and the audience isn’t asked to sympathize with him; he’s “a monster sprung full-grown from our collective id,” “an inexplicable madman unmotivated by anything other than insanity.” He’s terrifying and UNKNOWABLE, the external elemental force pitted AGAINST the film’s fragile moral core (Batman adhering to unspoken rules, and Gotham’s citizens choosing to spare each other rather than cynical self-preservation). Nolan’s film doesn’t ask us to pity him or empathize or wonder what his story is; it wants us to FEAR him (and the nihilism he represents in our own society and ourselves), and to FIGHT him. (And to ask what terrible costs we might be willing to pay to do so.)

Joaquin’s Joker doesn’t have a Batman to play off against. The film wants us to feel sorry for him, but it’s debatable whether his story is worth feeling sorry FOR; it seems to be, as MaryAnn describes, the tale of another white man who’s angry he doesn’t have the life he feels he’s entitled to.

zak1
zak1
reply to  Bluejay
Sat, Oct 12, 2019 8:50am

Thanks for your response – I strongly recommend you see this new film

As I understand Ms. Johanson’s point, Dark Knight was being somewhat dishonest with its audience – by making his Joker so totally irrational, and yet somehow so frighteningly effective, and by using this to justify to us Batman’s decision to violate the civil rights of all Gotham – in this way, Nolan was stoking the very same real life audience hysteria that was being used, at the time, to justify the real life expansion of authoritarian policies.

As she points out, such a mindlessly dangerous and implacable adversary does not really exist in the real world, so, in a way, using such a fabricated bogeyman to capitalize on public fears, during a time of a real debate that stood to impact many lives, may be argued as being dangerously irresponsible on the part of the filmmakers. Her review felt to me almost like a blissful lament – surrendering to such problematic aspects because the experience of watching Ledger’s performance and the film as a whole was so enormously pleasurable. This combination of self-aware insight and mixed feelings about that film is what I found so unique.

In comparison, I would say that, while Dark Knight uses the idea of unexplained irrationality and mental illness to make his Joker more alien, and to absolve us from any responsibility to try and understand him, this new film uses unexplained irrationality and mental illness precisely to draw us CLOSER to Phoenix’s Joker – to help us appreciate and empathize with another human being’s frailty; by avoiding a clear diagnosis, the film makes it harder for us to “label” and detach ourselves from him; through our identification, we are closely implicated in his actions, but at the same time, there is enough skepticism about him on our part, so the film gives us space to make our own judgments along the way about what is happening.

This notion of this Arthur feeling “entitled” makes no sense to me – he LOVES his job as a working class street clown – he even tells Wayne he wants nothing from him, except acknowledgement as a human being –

Indeed, the point of the film is not Arthur’s character per se, but the danger of his (our) merciless environment, and how it might potentially affect ANYBODY’s behavior.

Bluejay
Bluejay
reply to  zak1
Sat, Oct 12, 2019 1:28pm

As far as TDK goes, wow. Did we read the same review?

As I understand Ms. Johanson’s point, Dark Knight was being somewhat dishonest with its audience

No. If she felt the film were dishonest, she wouldn’t have given it her green “see it” stamp of approval. The film is complex, NOT dishonest.

by making his Joker so totally irrational, and yet somehow so frighteningly effective, and by using this to justify to us Batman’s decision to violate the civil rights of all Gotham

It DOESN’T justify Batman’s decision. It goes out of its way to show us Lucius Fox’s horror at the enormity of what Bruce did.

in this way, Nolan was stoking the very same real life audience hysteria that was being used, at the time, to justify the real life expansion of authoritarian policies

MaryAnn explicitly refutes this notion! “That’s the catch, the out that saves Nolan’s Batman from accusations of glorifying vigilantism or extralegal adventures in the name of truth and justice and peace. I mean, you can say that, if you want, and I’m sure people will, but they’d be wrong, because Batman here is all about adhering to rules higher than those that are written down, whose spirit and letter can be ignored. That’s explicit here: Batman may be extralegal and without jurisdiction, and Bruce Wayne may be as psychotic and as much a showman, in his own way, as the Joker, but he knows which rules cannot be broken, cannot be winked at and ignored, and the Joker doesn’t. There is, with true justice, only the spirit of the rules, and contravening them is where evil comes in.”

Yes, Batman deploys invasive universal surveillance, a civil rights violation that the film does NOT depict in a celebratory way. But he also steadfastly sticks to his one hard moral rule and REFUSES TO KILL. Refuses to drop a mobster from a lethal height. Refuses to kill the Joker in the interrogation room. Refuses to kill the Joker at the end. Just as the citizens of Gotham ultimately refuse to kill each other. The film draws a moral line (however thin) against the Joker’s nihilism and holds fast to it. The film tells us there are things we MUST NOT DO, even if it seems prudent to do them in the face of terror. It is, as MaryAnn says, about “What decency people can muster in indecent times. What it takes for people with principles to make a stand when principles seem unvalued.” It’s about how acting according to our values in these times is hard, even UNIMAGINABLY hard, but that it is what we must do nonetheless.

As she points out, such a mindlessly dangerous and implacable adversary does not really exist in the real world … Dark Knight uses the idea of unexplained irrationality and mental illness to make his Joker more alien, and to absolve us from any responsibility to try and understand him

Ledger’s Joker isn’t written as an INDIVIDUAL. He functions as a recognizable REPRESENTATION of the cumulative toxicity of our society, which DOES exist in the real world: “a beast easy to despise because he is so recognizably us, the awful side of us, not necessarily as individuals but as a puppet of all of us, fueled by the mutual societal self-destructiveness — as evidenced by the ongoing collapse of our economies, of our environment, of our inability to stop ourselves going over a cultural cliff — that some of us rage against it to seemingly no effect.” His role in Nolan’s story is not as a human character that the audience must understand, but as a FORCE whose effect on society demands that we wrestle with how best to respond. The film does NOT absolve us from grappling with how to act in the face of the real-world corrosion and destructiveness that Ledger’s Joker represents.

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  Bluejay
Sat, Oct 12, 2019 2:38pm

What Bluejay said.

zak1
zak1
reply to  Bluejay
Sat, Oct 12, 2019 3:29pm

Wow. Thanks for your thoughtful response.

I admit my comment above was responding more to a particular observation Ms. Johanson made, more to this point than to the review as a whole – she’s the only one I know of who had the clarity to see this, and it had a huge effect on me and on my reading of the film – it also impacted my reading of this new film. Here is the passage in question:

“(The Joker is) that impossibility that we, in the outside-of-the-movies world, have been ‘trained’ to see everywhere, even though they don’t exist, at least not on any meaningful scale: the terrorist with no cause, no politics, who’s just an inexplicable madman unmotivated by anything other than insanity.”

See, on the one hand, this conception is “impossible” in the real world, and yet, we, the public viewing this film, were being “trained” to see this “everywhere” – very true on both counts – with the real life outcome that people accepted that the only possible answer to such threats was relentless escalating force, and we accepted the erosion of our own liberties to further support the use of such force.

In the fictional world of the film, we see numerous exclamations of shock at Batman’s tactics, but, in the fictional world constructed by the filmmakers, no other option is presented – characters are dramatically “shocked”, but in the fictional film, this “shock” amounts to so much hot air, since the film simultaneously shows Batman as having no choice. In fictional terms, the film is supporting Batman’s shocking authoritarian actions, but cushioning the shock for us by surrounding it with noise and pretending to debate the issue – a genuine debate on such a sensitive issue would clearly show us other courses of action available to Batman that could work, so that we might question his motives for choosing one and not another.

In the real outside world, this depiction fed into a larger hysteria – presenting us with a terrifying monster that did not exist, as Ms. Johanson rightly points out, at a time when many people believed it did exist (in the OUTSIDE world), and were, in fact, “seeing” it “everywhere”, as she rightly suggests. In its own fictional world, the film conveniently absolves itself, and, as you correctly remind me, this was enough for Ms. Johanson to absolve it in turn.

For my part, I’m not convinced – I think this was dangerously irresponsible and fed into real life outside consequences – all the more because it was so well made. Much of its success came because it so successfully trafficked in real life fears of the moment. There are other parts I could cite where Dark Knight sensationally raises such issues of the moment and then similarly retreats from them to preserve its good guy vs bad guy comic book formula, but this unique passage was the main point I’d taken from this review.

Bluejay
Bluejay
reply to  zak1
Sat, Oct 12, 2019 4:42pm

In its own fictional world, the film conveniently absolves itself

It’s been a while since I saw the film, but that’s not the sense I got from it. Batman is not presented as having no choice – he spends the entire film MAKING choices, like the choice never to kill, and the choice to do the surveillance hack (which is presented IMO as being a BAD choice). The climax is about Gotham’s citizens making the CHOICE not to abandon their decency. Ledger’s Joker is all about forcing Gotham to make unpleasant choices that betray their deepest principles. Batman and Gotham’s citizens ultimately CHOOSE to reject him.

But if you find TDK “dangerously irresponsible,” why do you give the new Joker film a pass, when it is being criticized for justifying violence as an option for similarly unhappy white men, and for perpetuating the myth about mental illness and violence?

zak1
zak1
reply to  Bluejay
Sat, Oct 12, 2019 6:01pm

If an action is presented as necessary, then this is not really a choice in any meaningful sense. A character swerves to avoid driving into a brick wall – do we think of this as a “choice”?

The surveillance hack enabled Batman to defeat the Joker and likely prevent far more death and destruction – the physical urgency the film presented far outweighed the moral qualms raised by Fox – this was the point conveyed – I can’t imagine a SINGLE film-goer who would have rooted for Batman to wait during such an emergency when he had such a clear option in front of him – wait for what, exactly? You think anyone watching that film left it arguing that he should have waited?

A film may purport to raise an issue, and then rig itself so that the issue is in practice avoided. The scene on the ferry was a striking example – embarrassingly contrived, almost unwatchable, in my view. There is no way they could have maintained order on those boats, under those circumstances. Some individuals I can believe, but the crowds would have gone crazy with panic, after hearing the Joker’s announcement. They just sat still and behaved because the scriptwriters told them to. That’s what I mean when I say a film is being dishonest. FAKE

If those crowds on the ferry had failed the test, then the Joker as a nihilistic symbol would have made more sense – it would be very easy to agree with his point, since everyone’s behavior would have been so understandable.

Regarding the new film, I would be more interested in responding to your actual views after you’ve seen it.

I will say that, as I see it, TDK perpetuates this myth because it uses “insanity” to make its Joker MORE alien, whereas the new film uses it to bring us closer to him, to help us identify with his frailty while maintaining healthy doubt about his judgment

In a film like TDK, we automatically go along with the hero’s violence because it’s presented as NECESSARY. Interestingly, in the new film, insanity plays less of a role than one might expect in the choice to commit violence – indeed, the violence itself is presented as disarmingly sane and understandable – but NONE of it is shown as necessary – in each instance, we see clearly how much better things would have turned out if the characters avoided violence

Bluejay
Bluejay
reply to  zak1
Sat, Oct 12, 2019 7:48pm

I can’t imagine a SINGLE film-goer who would have rooted for Batman to wait during such an emergency when he had such a clear option in front of him – wait for what, exactly? You think anyone watching that film left it arguing that he should have waited?

Here’s Bilge Ebiri: “It’s a brazen invasion of privacy, and, as noted by many critics at the time, an unsettling echo of the Bush administration’s embrace of the surveillance state in the wake of 9-11 and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. So it’s perhaps telling that while Batman finds the Joker using this illegal sonar doohickey, it is not he who ultimately foils the villain’s plans, but the people of Gotham themselves: They finally refuse to kill one another.”

So it’s possible to argue that the film sees Batman’s violation of everyone’s privacy rights as an extremely tempting option but ultimately unnecessary; all it enabled him to do was track down the Joker (which he could have done by other means, at other times), while it was ultimately the people of Gotham themselves who disrupted the Joker’s master plan simply by choosing decency — no surveillance state needed. Which is exactly what so many critics of Bush’s War on Terror were saying: we don’t have to become like the monster to fight the monster.

They just sat still and behaved because the scriptwriters told them to. That’s what I mean when I say a film is being dishonest.

Well, I thought we were talking about THEMATIC dishonesty, which I don’t see in TDK. I think unrealistic dialogue/behavior is a problem with Nolan in general, whose characters tend to Expound Themes All the Time rather than say anything normal.

I’ll leave it there, since people have been debating TDK for a decade and haven’t settled anything. :-)

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  zak1
Wed, Oct 16, 2019 8:49am

A character swerves to avoid driving into a brick wall – do we think of this as a “choice”?

If a character has to swerve to avoid driving into a brick wall but will instead run down a child, is that a choice?

the new film uses it to bring us closer to him, to help us identify with his frailty

I don’t identify with his frailty…

the violence itself is presented as disarmingly sane and understandable

Seriously?!

zak1
zak1
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Thu, Oct 17, 2019 1:14pm

Violence – all of the violence in Joker is awful and wrong, but the film goes surprisingly far in giving the sense that Arthur is reacting to multiple provocations – in the tradition of the character who finally “snaps” – also, apart from Arthur himself, virtually all of the film’s violence is committed by “sane” characters (crucially, by both lower and upper class) as an expression of casual cruelty – so that’s also disarming if one envisions how easy it is for people to act like this

Choice – I agree of course about the child – but even if the child isn’t there, swerving is still technically a choice – but the audience likely won’t perceive that because the momentum of the action drives us past – I think a lot of movie-making works that way – the design of the storytelling often drives us past points that ought to be considered – so it may misleadingly feel like the action is “necessary”

Frailty – I think the film crucially wanted us to identify with his frailty – for me, it succeeded, but if that didn’t work with you, then I can understand how much of this film might come across as maudlin, even cringe-worthy

Here’s the thing – I think there’s a lot of frustration and despair about what’s happening in our society – a sense that it’s getting more inhuman on many fronts – especially in the way vulnerable people of various stripes are treated

I think what this film does, or tries to do, is put that question front and center – to make the case that yes – society does impact us as individuals – we as individuals should expect a certain standard in how we’re treated

So often, when this issue comes up, it’s deflected – people rationalize it away, saying this person “deserved” it, or that group is pleading for “special privileges”, or this other person should “man up” and not be a “cry-baby” (this is embodied in the film in how the one percent are all depicted as robotic and disdainful, walls of impassive flesh) – cumulatively, it’s just been incredibly difficult to make a case for basic human decency on a societal level

I think somehow, this film has managed to side-step all these triggers and break through, and get a wide array of people imagining THEMSELVES on the receiving end – talking about exactly this question of how people in general are being treated – how our SOCIETY is treating us –

Regardless of whether the film itself is good, I’m glad this question is emerging, and at this time – I think many people are hungry to respond to such a question, which I think has fed into the film’s runaway success

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  zak1
Thu, Oct 17, 2019 2:52pm

I can understand how much of this film might come across as maudlin, even cringe-worthy

I neither said nor implied anything of the kind. Maudlin? This film is most emphatically NOT maudlin.

we as individuals should expect a certain standard in how we’re treated

Of course we should expect that. And everyone is deserving and respect and dignity. But many of us have about had it with white men being front and center in the battle for dignity. And we have absolutely fucking had it with the pushback from certain quarters of white men (see: fanboys) when it’s women or POC asking for the same respect and dignity.

it’s just been incredibly difficult to make a case for basic human decency on a societal level

It really hasn’t. People have been making such a case, eloquently and passionately, onscreen forever. It’s just that many white men do not seem to hear these things unless they are centered in these stories.

this film has managed to side-step all these triggers and break through, and get a wide array of people imagining THEMSELVES on the receiving end

Ah. You are making the tired old argument — so entrenched in our culture that it often goes entirely unseen — that stories about white men are somehow universal, while stories about everyone not white and/or male are not.

Many people are tired of this bullshit, too.

I’m glad this question is emerging

Emerging?! This question has been here! That you haven’t noticed it says a lot.

zak1
zak1
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Thu, Oct 17, 2019 4:56pm

“Maudlin” – I meant if you felt the film was excessively asking us to share in the character’s self-pity

“Women or POC asking for the same dignity” – I completely agree. It’s true that too high a proportion of films place the white male front and center, and this is actually a culturally destructive pattern that needs to change (The Impossible was revolting in describing an Indonesian tragedy purely for its effect on a family of white tourists) – but I won’t raise this particular criticism about a film titled “Joker” (though I’d be happy to see Amanda Plummer or Lupita Nyong’o try this character)

“It’s been incredibly difficult to make a case” – I mean on a level that catches fire in the mainstream discussion and feeds into large scale mobilization and policy change – when was the last time we saw that?

“many white men don’t hear” – very true – so surely it’s somebody’s job to try to persuade these people also? Because their inability to hear results in large scale obstruction of initiatives that might help – do you think it’s a lost cause to try to reach these people? The industry should not be so obsessively focused on this demographic – but I don’t fault an individual film for this

“tired old argument” – I’m also talking in terms of the way the industry thinks – I’m saying there are realities about how the industry functions – realities that I’m sure you know better than I – when I say such stories are “viewed as universal”, I’m talking in terms of how they’ll be received and marketed in this cultural climate –

it’s common for filmmakers and critics to talk in terms of “playing the game” and “smuggling in” certain issues and ideas under the guise of a commercially acceptable formula – obviously the need for this is wrong, but politics means at least being aware of the terrain

“Emerging” – the concern is much older (early 80s is actually an important marker, I think), but I’m sure you’ve noticed a change over the past decade in how these issues are discussed in the mainstream – look at how the political conversation shifted in 2016 – and in general, Hollywood has not been addressing this concern

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  zak1
Sat, Oct 12, 2019 2:21pm

I just approved your spam-flagged comment. I didn’t realize it was still in the system: Disqus is supposed to let me know that I need to approve (or not) a comment that’s been flagged, and it didn’t do that with your.

Almost at the end of my rope with Disqus, honestly…. *argh*

zak1
zak1
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Sat, Oct 12, 2019 3:36pm

Thanks!

Hugh Janus
Hugh Janus
Sat, Oct 05, 2019 4:43pm

After seeing this masterpiece of a movie and then reading the review of this misandrist I can see how it must hit too close to home for her. I can easily picture her as the Arthur Fleck character from this film, a loner, no friends, looking to extract revenge on every male thats swiped left and ignored her very existence by writing un-biased reviews based on her seething male prejudice. All in all a great flick and pleased that no one shot up the movie theater I watched it out.

amanohyo
amanohyo
reply to  Hugh Janus
Sat, Oct 05, 2019 5:41pm

Vaguely creepy revenge fantasy projections wrapped in unsupported assurances from a complete stranger that the film is a “great masterpiece?” Say no more fam, we shall depart for the multiplex post haste!

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  Hugh Janus
Sun, Oct 06, 2019 12:30pm

That is… remarkably specific an accusation. Perhaps you’re the one who sees himself in it?

Bluejay
Bluejay
Sat, Oct 05, 2019 6:50pm

Responses here are utterly predictable. Film glorifying cesspool human is defended by cesspool commenters. Yawn. Next.

Edd
Edd
reply to  Bluejay
Sun, Oct 06, 2019 7:04am

Typical dude that didn’t watch the movie! Also predictable

Bluejay
Bluejay
reply to  Edd
Sun, Oct 06, 2019 3:46pm

Ah, so if I watch the movie, I’ll understand why it’s okay for commenters to call her gendered slurs and engage in personal attacks. Got it. My bad.

Edd
Edd
reply to  Bluejay
Mon, Oct 07, 2019 10:25am

What? Im talking about the comments that arent insulting. Like mine. If you want to focus on trash. Then focus on trash I guess

Bluejay
Bluejay
reply to  Edd
Mon, Oct 07, 2019 1:05pm

You’re not using slurs, but you’re still an ass badgering multiple commenters and insisting that only your way of thinking is right. You’re telling the reviewer WHO WATCHED THE MOVIE and formed her own opinion on it “You are just not watching the movie“; a commenter’s good-faith response to you is “pointless“; another commenter is “WEIRD and weak” for saying the film has a confused message, etc.

It’s a free country and you’re free to keep posting. But the rest of us are also free to call you out as an insecure dude who has to repeatedly insist that everyone else is wrong.

Edd
Edd
reply to  Bluejay
Tue, Oct 08, 2019 5:43am

Ok? Im fine with your right

Edd
Edd
reply to  Bluejay
Tue, Oct 08, 2019 6:21am

By the way. I justified every single comment I made. I have a brain and I make my own opinions about what I watch.

To me, depending on being said what to think it is iis weak and weird.
Weak minded for obvious reasons.
Weird because I dont how is that possible. People rarely change their minds. Its all about the next generations that we can educate to be better

Bluejay
Bluejay
reply to  Edd
Tue, Oct 08, 2019 11:22am

I have a brain and I make my own opinions

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYabrQrXt4A&t=8s

scottc
scottc
reply to  Bluejay
Thu, Oct 10, 2019 11:02pm

Personal attacks are bad. Bad form. I don’t agree with her review, but, it’s HER review. I come here to read her reviews, and I don’t always agree (like with this one), but this is her opinion.

Debate, don’t name call.

Jimmy Fellon
Jimmy Fellon
Sat, Oct 05, 2019 8:23pm

The problem with the movie is the title ” Joker ”. There’s nothing about this figure, this character so well represented in Batman and other movies. Joker: Apolitical, anarchist, rebel, free, violent, funny, sadistic, unanswered, meaningless.

Joker is like a dream, you have a feeling he’s there, but he’s not.

Edd
Edd
reply to  Jimmy Fellon
Sun, Oct 06, 2019 7:03am

Apolitical, anarchist, rebel, free, violent, funny, sadistic, unanswered, meaningless.

I literally saw all those things in the movie. Every single one

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  Jimmy Fellon
Sun, Oct 06, 2019 12:31pm

The Joker should be like Loki: a trickster, a clown speaking truth to power. The Joker should be elemental.

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Tue, Oct 08, 2019 12:52pm

It suddenly occurred to me that some people might think that when I said “Loki” I mean the Marvel character. I mean the trickster demigod of *actual* Norse mythology.

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Tue, Oct 08, 2019 6:27pm

Why on Earth would someone downvote my comment?! Is that you, Tom Hiddleston?

Bluejay
Bluejay
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Tue, Oct 08, 2019 6:29pm

I didn’t ever seem to see any downvotes on ANYTHING up until a few days ago, even in heated discussions. Did Disqus use to hide downvotes?

EDIT: Oh, yeah, I guess so. https://blog.disqus.com/bringing-back-downvotes

EDIT2: Although for some reason you can identify your upvoters, but not your downvoters. So trolls can coordinate downvote campaigns in perfect anonymity, hooray.

Danielm80
Danielm80
reply to  Bluejay
Tue, Oct 08, 2019 6:48pm

You act as though there’s more than one troll downvoting the comments.

In fairness, though, I’ve downvoted plenty of troll comments the past few days.

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  Bluejay
Fri, Oct 11, 2019 8:36am

Disqus has so many problems lately that I wish there was another good option for commenting here. But I haven’t found it yet.

windy_way8192
windy_way8192
Sun, Oct 06, 2019 7:26am

I loved it as much as it disturbed me. I thought it was an effective tale of delusion, personal, interrelational, and collective. The joke is that so many lies are true, and so much truth is lies. Did you notice how much more lucidly he speaks with his mother but how his ability to communicate degrades with others? And how that degradation impacts all interactions? What’s it like for a sick person to be grey-stoned by everyone able to help but tortured by those who take notice?

For instance, I was fortunate to have tons of pushback over years of expressing homophobic viewpoints, including here. That earnest pushback with correct information helped me deconstruct my views. But many people grey-stoned me. Of course they had the right to, and it was probably best in some situations, at least best for them at the time. It is literally no one’s job to correct wrong-headedness of a person. There’s no personal guilt or shame there, ultimately. But, right or wrong, there are consequences.

It’s actually scary as hell, but that’s life.

amanohyo
amanohyo
reply to  windy_way8192
Mon, Oct 07, 2019 3:12pm

Thank you for the earnest response. You are correct – grey-stoning is best in some situations. Most people who encounter the mentally ill on a regular basis have to grey-stone to a degree because it’s too draining to become genuinely emotionally involved with everyone they meet/treat. The classic Harley Quinn “Mad Love”episode of Btas is a simplified portrayal of the potential risks.

Of course, in modern urban society, person to person interaction is less and less essential and local communities are not closely knit, so the mentally ill often gather online or in poorly run shelters and completely lose track of what normal social interaction looks like (after reading some of these comments, I’m beginning to forget myself). Long ago, each community typically had one or two mentally ill members who regularly interacted with people presenting models of healthy behaviour. Of course, many mentally ill people were also bullied, shamed into silence, and ostracized, but it was feasible for local caregivers to help each one with genuine compassion.

Now, every metro or bus ride potentially introduces a mentally ill person you’ve never seen before and may never see again, and who’s to say which of the hundreds of strangers posting odd, emotional comments online at large sites are trolls and which are genuinely sick individuals who need help? In such an environment, grey-stoning and/or conscious ignorance is required for survival.

Humans are genetically wired to live in small social groups and to value social approval from and connection to high status members. Out in the wilds of the internet that often means alienated people will gather together and reinforce unhealthy habits, but it also means that smaller, moderated internet communities like this one have real value, as it’s possible to occasionally (within reason, MA does not have an infinite supply of patience and time) connect and communicate with an internet stranger as if they are a person and not just another soldier/cheerleader in a flavour of the minute Brand War.

You’re right, it’s scary as hell that mentally ill people are left to figure out what’s right and wrong on their own in a country (the wealthiest country in the history of the world) that places such little value on healthcare, education, and community, and it’s even scarier that innocent people must suffer the (often deadly) consequences of that negligence. I haven’t seen the movie yet, but I’m glad that it both frightened you and connected with you on a personal level. Thanks again for sharing your perspective and thoughts.

MaryAnn Johanson
Sun, Oct 06, 2019 12:27pm

It was the fifth review i’ve read in wich i read so much nonsense (in my opinion),

And yet somehow multiple people saying similar things didn’t make you at least consider their viewpoint, at least consider where they were coming from and why they might be reacting to the film in the way that they did?

Here’s a place to start: Perhaps think about why the things you consider “reality” that film just has to “actually” portray are filtered through a very narrow lens… one that those of us who do not accept that narrow lens are tired of.

the assumption that the artist actualy has a political agenda beforehand, wich in most cases isn’t true, it’s art and mostly fiction.

All art is political. All fiction is political. Whether the creator realizes that or not. There is no neutral. There is no default.

PrivatePyle
PrivatePyle
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Sun, Oct 06, 2019 1:57pm

Well, maybe considering other peoples viewpoints goes both ways. You already go in with a totally biased viewpoint of men in general. It’s like setting a bait of self fullfiling prophecy. Just as you wont accept people viewing art through a narrow lens, there are numerous people that simply wont accept to be portrayed as as a negative stereotype. Talk about a narrow lens.. Ever once considered your own privilege as a white woman? I bet you did, but are eager to compare it to the so called privilege of white males while in reality privilege has far more to do with the social class in wich one has to live. But on point, This movie is very divisive so i could also point out to at least five reviews who actualy shared my views on the movie. It isn’t even that i view movies through a narrow lens, it’s just that i feel i don’t need to put energy in searching for opposing personal viewpoints that could possibly be presented in a film. It seems like reaching for most movies. Just because a film or film maker portrays things that i don’t condone with in any way, doesn’t mean they are actually portraying it because they feel it is their viewpoint. That’s why “All art is political” is such a bold and to me uninformed. statement that i am not able reach a concensus. But you know, it’s really hard to have a discussion with a self professed biased person wich brings me back to your own point of considering other peoples viewpoints.

Tonio Kruger
Tonio Kruger
reply to  PrivatePyle
Sun, Oct 06, 2019 6:31pm

A few words of advice, PrivatePyle:

1. Paragraph breaks are your friends.

2. Nobody likes to read a wall of text.

3. If you’re writing your comments on a device that makes it hard to edit, then don’t use that device to write comments.

4. It is always wrong to make assumptions but like it or not, people will judge you by your words. And if you claim to be a reviewer, a critic or a professional writer, they will judge you even more harshly than they would another person.

5. If you can’t be bothered to make your comments a bit reader-friendly, people aren’t likely to take your arguments seriously.

6. It always helps to keep personal insults out of your writing but you already know that.

Stacy Livitsanis
Stacy Livitsanis
Sun, Oct 06, 2019 3:21pm

I liked the scene in the cinema that’s playing Modern Times, because it reminded me what a genuinely good movie looks like.

C’mon folks, if you like a movie, no one else can take that away from you. This is a real ‘water is wet’ issue of emotional maturity and having confidence in your own tastes. This is a bit self-serving, but for an example of how to respectfully disagree with MaryAnn, you could check out my comments on her Alita: Battle Angel review.

A friend of mine recently watched Booksmart at my recommendation and he hated it, and I considered breaking off our friendship…. No, of course I didn’t, because that would be absurd. We just disagreed about a movie, and yet somehow, life goes on and we’re still friends.

Tonio Kruger
Tonio Kruger
reply to  Stacy Livitsanis
Sun, Oct 06, 2019 6:50pm

Yes, Modern Times was an awesome movie. I always felt bad that Great Depression II never inspired anyone in Hollywood to come up with a similar classic.

And yes, there is something to be said for respectful disagreement. After all, insulting people rarely makes people change their minds. And it doesn’t encourage people who are not related to the object of your insults to agree with you.

MaryAnn Johanson
Sun, Oct 06, 2019 8:42pm

And you are now gone.

August
August
Sun, Oct 06, 2019 11:53pm

I want to ask you some things about this movie; why do you think the movie has so much viewers approvals in IMDB putting it now in a 9 points (i know we need more time to see the more statistic number, probably will fall a bit from that number), how would you explain that. Letting that aside, do you really find the message is so badly intentioned and overwhelming or maybe appealing to men for them to feel attract to the character? and can it be dangerous for society to see this kind of movies? if thats so, Why?.

Do you think that calling for not to see this movie will get that effect on general viewers?

let put the situation that the same movie was done with a woman for main character, or maybe more worried about machism messages not to be throw away on the screen, would you change your critic for better? I know that i am asking almost to change the movie. things are done and thats it :/

Thanks for the review, i think i will see the movie with more carefull eyes.

Danielm80
Danielm80
reply to  August
Mon, Oct 07, 2019 4:14am

This review addresses some of the issues you asked about. MaryAnn’s answers to your questions, of course, might be very different.

https://filmotomy.com/film-road-to-halloween-joker-2019/

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  August
Mon, Oct 07, 2019 10:34am

Fanboy bombing of online ratings are not a new thing. No explanation needed.

Yes, I really believe the things I write.

Who is calling for anyone not to see any movie?

It is too enormous a topic to explain to you how men and women are treated differently in our culture and in our entertainment, and how gender flipping a story makes it radically different. Educate yourself. You can start with the detailed criteria I developed for my #Where Are the Women? project to delineate the issues involved with women’s representation onscreen:

https://www.flickfilosopher.com/2016/04/where-are-the-women-rating-criteria.html
https://www.flickfilosopher.com/2016/04/where-are-the-women-rating-criteria-explained.html

Also try this:

https://www.flickfilosopher.com/2014/11/movies-fail-girls-women-fans-filmmakers-alike.html

giveaflyingfigachance
giveaflyingfigachance
Mon, Oct 07, 2019 7:04pm

MaryAnn, I think you should have acknowledged in the “biast” at the beginning that you hate Todd Phillips, because this review very much reads like you went into the film looking to hate it and with preconceived notions about what it was.

Joker is a character study of a mentally ill person who, in the context of economic and social unrest, goes off his meds, appears to find out some things about his past that cause a complete mental break, and appears to become a murderous psychopath and the accidental leader of an anarchic social movement. I say “appears” because the film is radically subjective (like Science of Sleep or Spider) and much of it may be playing out only in his head.

I am a fan of films like Roma and Moonlight that make me empathize with people unlike myself. I felt that Joker did that extremely well. The character absolutely IS pathetic, utterly lacking in social skills or grace. His dreams are insipid. He just wants to feel like he matters, and he knows he doesn’t. He knows he’s broken but at first he doesn’t understand just how broken he is. He doesn’t have any real insight to offer about societal ills. All he has is pain and longing.The film puts you right there with him, up close and uncomfortable with someone you would instinctively recoil from in real life.

If you can’t have empathy for such a person, then the film simply doesn’t work. But if you do, the payoff is riveting.

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  giveaflyingfigachance
Tue, Oct 08, 2019 12:58pm

MaryAnn, I think you should have acknowledged in the “biast” at the beginning that you hate Todd Phillips, because this review very much reads like you went into the film looking to hate it and with preconceived notions about what it was.

I don’t go into ANY movie “looking to hate it.” And while I mostly haven’t liked Phillips’s movies, he does not register as a director enough for me to have any particular feeling about him or his work whatsoever. Although after this film, and the way he has slagged off pushback against the movie, he’s pretty much earned himself an anti-bias next time.

much of it may be playing out only in his head

If it’s all playing out in his head, then he’s not going to graduate to Gotham’s *actual* supervillain, is he?

I do not have empathy for people who turn their own pain onto hurting others as we see depicted here, and in the particular way the film wants us to feel that empathy. I just cannot.

For you to compare the empathy this movie wants to the empathy that Roma and Moonlight want is pretty appalling.

giveaflyingfigachance
giveaflyingfigachance
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Tue, Oct 08, 2019 4:38pm

You say to compare empathy for the Joker to empathy to the protagonist of Moonlight is appalling. The protagonist in Moonlight is a drug dealing thug who uses violence and the threat of violence to get what he wants. We are only shown one violent episode, but we have every reason to believe there are plenty more. Is it the mere fact of his blackness and queerness that makes his actions less deplorable and him more worthy of empathy?

I’m not saying this to mess with you. I am not a right-wing troll. I support Elizabeth Warren, loathe Donald Trump, and generally view accusations of liberal groupthink as pernicious nonsense. But I have found liberal media’s reaction to this film far more disturbing than anything in the film itself. I genuinely don’t understand the intense hatred. There’s not that much violence, and the violence is not random. The violence IS upsetting, but I would much rather have violence that is traumatic than violence played for a laugh the way it is in Tarantino movies. I would much rather have moral ambiguity in violence rather than simplistic assertions of right and wrong, good and evil. For me the end of Joker is great precisely because one experiences it as the triumph it is in his mind and as a nightmarish horror story of societal collapse.

And yes, the film is deliberately ambiguous about whether any of it is occurring outside the protagonist’s mind. This is a direct quote from Phillips:
“There’s a lot of ways you could look at this movie. You could look at it and go, ‘This is just one of his multiple-choice stories. None of it happened.’ I don’t want to say what it is. But a lot of people I’ve shown it to have said, ‘Oh, I get it — he’s just made up a story. The whole movie is the joke. It’s this thing this guy in Arkham Asylum concocted. He might not even be the Joker.’”

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  giveaflyingfigachance
Tue, Oct 08, 2019 6:36pm

As Roger Ebert once wisely said, It’s not what a movie about, it’s how it’s about it. And there is no comparing the how-it’s-about-it of *Moonlight* with the how-it’s-about-it of *Joker.* The differences between the two movies are stark, and not just because of the different races of the protagonists.

I don’t care what Phillips says or thinks about the film. Once a work of art — or “art” — is out there, it’s open to any supportable interpretation. And I think that any interpretation that suggests that *Joker* is happening mostly in the imagination of its protagonist is a disingenuous copout.

giveaflyingfigachance
giveaflyingfigachance
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Tue, Oct 08, 2019 7:49pm

Interesting that you should bring up Roger Ebert. Lovely man, brilliant critic. But sometimes he was just plain wrong. I submit his review of A Clockwork Orange.

https://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/a-clockwork-orange-1972

I think you are as wrong about Joker as Ebert was about A Clockwork Orange, and for many of the same reasons.

amanohyo
amanohyo
reply to  giveaflyingfigachance
Wed, Oct 09, 2019 2:35am

Wait a sec, are you saying that Ebert’s initial review of ACO is objectively wrong? He watched the movie, had a reaction, thought awhile, then explained why he didn’t like the film. Even if he changed his mind later, the initial review isn’t wrong. I know people who don’t like The Godfather because they feel it glorifies violent criminal behavior and people who hate coffee ice cream because the flavor is too bitter. I know people that hate Seven Samurai because they think it’s boring and hate reading subtitles.

These people are not wrong, just as someone who tells you that the best movie of all time is Space Mutiny isn’t wrong. The “in my opinion” is implied whenever people discuss their response to art. You can disagree with their opinion and explain your reasoning and perspective – maybe they’ll adjust their opinions later, maybe not, but the quality of a work of art will always be subjective, and is never set in stone.

You’re essentially claiming that: “The gatekeepers of this subset of art that have authority in my particular social sphere will deem this work to be worthy of membership into the officially sanctioned canon at some near future date.” is the same thing as saying “This is a great work of art, and anyone who doesn’t agree is wrong.” Those are very different statements. The first may be true, but it has no authority over another person’s opinion. Even in China, no one cedes all of their thoughts about art to an official canon or list of box office results. Humans don’t work that way, as ACO demonstrates.

Fundamentally, your dispute boils down to: “I liked this movie, but you didn’t. My reasons make sense, I have good taste, I’m not a bad person, and the people I respect agree with me, so you’re wrong.” This is not constructive and will never convince anyone who truly cares about movies unless you already have strong empathy based on a deep personal relationship.

Most of the people who dislike the movie cite a lack of focus and originality, and/or mention that it expects the audience to empathize with an evil person who makes terrible, lazy decisions. You’ve explained why you liked the film in previous comments. That’s all you can do – you cannot force this opinion onto another person, and you certainly can’t declare their perspective objectively wrong.

There is, however, an objective system of morality that all rational adult humans agree on (do not cause pain, do not kill, do not deceive or deprive of pleasure/ability/freedom, etc.). Any review that touches on the moral aspects of a film, as MA’s review does, has some limited claim to objectivity. If you want to support an argument that this is a moral film, and/or that great art can and should be able to celebrate evil, immoral people, or that the character of the Joker is not actually that evil and the real villain is society, or elaborate on how you think the movie presents him in an unsympathetic light, or all of the above, go right ahead. However, please do so with the goal of communicating your perspective and without the need to convince others that they’re wrong like some soldier in a battle between prescriptive, cultural hive minds.

giveaflyingfigachance
giveaflyingfigachance
reply to  amanohyo
Wed, Oct 09, 2019 6:16am

Thank you for the detailed and thoughtful response.

It seems to me that a reviewer can be “objectively wrong” when they make claims about the filmmaker’s intent. For instance, if a reviewer states that Phillips put certain scenes in Joker as dog whistles to the alt-right, that is not an opinion. That is a factual claim, it’s either true or false.

Let me try another example. Lots of people hate Michael Haneke’s Funny Games (either version) because it is deeply upsetting to watch. Thinking they’re unpleasant films that are not worth watching is an opinion. Some people believe Haneke intended the film as torture porn to appeal to sickos who get off on that sort of thing. That is a factual claim, and I believe that available evidence overwhelmingly indicates that it is a factually inaccurate claim.

The two most celebrated American film critics of the late 20th century were Pauline Kael and Roger Ebert. They both wrote blisteringly negative reviews of A Clockwork Orange in which they made numerous claims about Kubrick’s intent as a filmmaker. Now I suppose it’s possible that Kubrick intended ACO as a work of pornography that glamorized Alex in order to appeal to shallow youth. However, there’s a lot of available evidence that indicates otherwise.

I’m not trying to convince everyone that Joker is a great film. I thought it was great, I explained why I thought it was great, it’s cool that other people didn’t like it. What bothers me is the assumptions I see critics making about the filmmaker’s intent.

In your last paragraph you assert that MaryAnn’s review has a claim to objectivity because she addresses the film’s morality. Honestly, I find this argument very strange. Joker is not a snuff film. Notwithstanding the moral panic that swept the Internet, there is no evidence that Phillips intended the film to incite evil. Are you suggesting that the mere depiction of evil (or irrational violence) is inherently a moral failing?
And is there really an objective system of morality that all rational adult humans agree on? Is war moral? Is the killing and eating of animals moral? Is the violence of a slave rebellion morally justified? We might all be able to agree on abstract principles, but in practice it all gets very messy very quickly.
To me, it is a moral failing not to care about people. To me, it is a moral failing to say, “that’s a white male who has all sorts of unearned advantages from being white and male, so therefore their suffering is invalidated.”

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  giveaflyingfigachance
Fri, Oct 11, 2019 8:48am

if a reviewer states that Phillips put certain scenes in Joker as dog whistles to the alt-right, that is not an opinion. That is a factual claim,

No, it’s a supposition, and comes with the same unspoken “in my opinion” caveat.

Some people believe Haneke intended the film as

See, you do understand this! “Some people believe…”

therefore their suffering is invalidated

But no one is saying that. Perhaps you’re misinterpreting complaints about the centering of white men’s pain above everyone else’s that way. Striving to ensure that everyone’s stories are told, heard, and heeded with the same respect that those about white men have been is NOT oppression.

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  giveaflyingfigachance
Fri, Oct 11, 2019 8:37am

How can a critic be “plain wrong” about sharing their honest reaction to a film?

SaltHarvest
SaltHarvest
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Thu, Oct 17, 2019 8:53pm

Do you think politics is merely a matter of opinion, MaryAnn?

SaltHarvest
SaltHarvest
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Thu, Oct 17, 2019 8:52pm

Please forgive the Joker for being disingenuous… or not.

The Dude
The Dude
Mon, Oct 07, 2019 8:03pm

This is an origin story for just one version of the joker….their are many many versions. This movie shouldn’t be seen as the overall origin story for the average cumulative version of ALL jokers. Consider it an alternative universe version of the joker…which again, there are many… It’s a stand alone version of one persons conception used to tell this particular story

zak1
zak1
Thu, Oct 10, 2019 3:02pm

“Ha ha ha!”
“Why dost thou laugh? It fits not with this hour.”
“Why, I have not another tear to shed.”
– Titus Andronicus

In a way, I find your reaction to this film a bit surprising, or at least ironic. I recall your brilliant take on Heath Ledger’s Joker – making the distinction that the conception of that character – so beautifully realized – might nonetheless at the same time be incredibly toxic and even dangerously irresponsible on the part of the filmmakers – I can think of NOBODY else who was so on-target about the implications of Nolan/Ledger’s interpretation, while at the same time fully savoring the enormity of that film’s accomplishment.

This new film in some ways feels almost as if the filmmakers here might have read your cautionary take on Ledger’s Joker and based their own interpretation on it. Indeed, my memory of the point you’d made actually increased my appreciation of this Joker film, which I liked immensely. As you point out, Ledger’s Joker, as a concept, was a total fabrication, feeding into a willful blindness within the audience – in this respect, this new Joker film is the exact opposite – painfully close to home, forcing our gaze upon a rage mounting all around us, one we fear to acknowledge, forcing us to see it in context.

I think this new Joker is meant to be seen as a kind of Everyman – what’s shocking about this film is the sense of lucidity it grants its title character – his mind may be fogged by any range of medications and underlying ailments – including a childlike silent-era sentimentality that is virtually insane in its own right – but he’s presented as having an absolutely clear sense of the humanity that’s so routinely violated in this world of cannibals the film depicts – he’s depicted almost like a Christ figure in a Hieronymous Bosch painting, but one about to collapse into murderous outrage and unleash his power – and his tragic descent from frail angel to violent monster is the very same arc Mary Shelley depicted, making the exact same point – except here we see this Frankenstein monster as simply a more pronounced example of what’s happening to the whole society.

The point is made with a tabloid crudeness intended to reach a wide audience – sometimes a genre picture can make a taboo point more directly than other modes – think of Joe Dante’s Homecoming, or Sam Fuller’s White Dog. This strikes me as a zeitgeist film – speaking to a confused and disaffected population, warning how, in the absence of legitimate outlets and support, how easily mounting pain can spiral into wholesale chaos and madness.

scottc
scottc
Thu, Oct 10, 2019 11:10pm

I thought the film was very well done. Joaquin Phoenix was great. I will have to watch the film multiple times to figure out what really happened.

That said MaryAnn’s opinion is valid – As valid as yours or mine. No need to lob personal insults.

Michiel Deinema
Michiel Deinema
Fri, Oct 11, 2019 9:18pm

While I do understand your criticism, I do have to say that it’s harsh to say Arthur is mad because life hasnt handed him everything on a silver platter. He’s mentally ill after being abused as a child. Man, woman, white, or black, that doesnt really make a difference when you have a mental disorder. Other than that, there’s nothing profound or groundbreaking in this movie.

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  Michiel Deinema
Sat, Oct 12, 2019 2:27pm

Man, woman, white, or black, that doesnt really make a difference when you have a mental disorder.

It absolutely makes a difference. A huge one. Men externalize their anxiety and their confusion, often violently; women typically turn that stuff on themselves, and hurt only themselves. And a black man who behaved like Arthur does? You *really* think he’d be treated in the same way that Arthur is, either within the context of the story or the way in which this film is being received?

Please read this to begin to understand the differences:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/09/movies/joker-movie-controversy.html

Michiel Deinema
Michiel Deinema
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Sat, Oct 12, 2019 2:46pm

Thanks for the link, however my point is that I find fault with the point that Arthur should not be allowed to feel bad, because life didn’t hand him anything. You can be born as a cis, white male to extremely wealthy parents and still be absolutely miserable for your entire life due to having a mental disorder.

My point is not so much a defense of the movie, but a disagreement blaming a mentally ill person for feeling bad even though he’s from a priviliged class (white, male).

As for the way different mental disorders manifest, I highly doubt either of us is qualified enough to make an educated assessment of this. “mental dissorder” is not a singularly definable term. There’s countless of dissorders that manifest in countless ways.

Anyway, not a dig against your review, which I find quite fair, just, this subjects hits rather close to home for me. Also, English is not my first language, so I hope my point comes across a bit:)

Bluejay
Bluejay
reply to  Michiel Deinema
Sat, Oct 12, 2019 3:02pm

The film is also being criticized for stigmatizing people with mental health issues by perpetuating the myth about the connection between mental illness and violence.

https://www.insider.com/joaquin-phoenix-joker-problematic-connects-mental-illness-and-violence-2019-10

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/why-joker-shouldnt-have-relied-mental-illness-1246869

Michiel Deinema
Michiel Deinema
reply to  Bluejay
Sat, Oct 12, 2019 3:57pm

Again, I’m not defending this movie, I’m saying even people born in to advantageous circumstances can be mentally ill and unhappy. That is all :)

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  Michiel Deinema
Wed, Oct 16, 2019 8:43am

Arthur should not be allowed to feel bad

I never said that.

You can be born as a cis, white male to extremely wealthy parents and still be absolutely miserable for your entire life due to having a mental disorder.

Absolutely true. Privilege does not protect you from having problems with your life, and privilege does not mean everything gets handed to you on a platter. But it is also absolutely true that someone who is not white and/or not male and/or not able-bodied is going to have things much worse than Arthur does even if they’re dealing with the same issues he has.

But if you want to argue that Arthur is actually, genuinely mentally ill, then you have to take onboard the criticisms of the film for its appalling depiction of mental illness. (See Bluejay’s links.)

Tonio Kruger
Tonio Kruger
Fri, Oct 11, 2019 9:18pm

Even if those statistics were true — which is doubtful, given your obvious biases — I’m not quite sure what that has to do with either the NYT essay or MaryAnn’s review. And your pathetic decision to insult the hostess of this site says all I need to know about how seriously I should consider your comment.

MPC
MPC
Tue, Oct 15, 2019 2:05am

You are so on point with a LOT of this (I was on the fence about seeing it), especially it vilifying mental illness. I saw this today with my nurse friend, and that aspect of it pissed him off the most. People with mental illnesses are not to be feared or ostracized, but to empathize and help them integrate with society.

In that aspect, Phillips and Scott Silver missed the point by a country mile. But there are some promising scenes in the film that, had they been handled by Scorsese or Nolan (or any other director than Todd Phillips), would’ve hit the mark.

SaltHarvest
SaltHarvest
reply to  MPC
Thu, Oct 17, 2019 8:50pm

The movie does not vilify mental illness. It just contemporaneously leaves treatment depictions off to the side.

Even Arthur’s writing hints at that point: ..People expect mentally ill people to act like they are not,( and so on…)

MPC
MPC
reply to  SaltHarvest
Thu, Oct 17, 2019 9:44pm

Agree to disagree. The movie left me hollow and empty. No sense of emotional catharsis or closure.

I never want to see this movie again.

SaltHarvest
SaltHarvest
reply to  MPC
Thu, Oct 17, 2019 9:46pm

It wasn’t designed to have closure, as far as I can tell. The future has yet to be written, and not just in the Dark Knight Rising sense.

SaltHarvest
SaltHarvest
Thu, Oct 17, 2019 8:17pm

Well, given the film’s ending.. I woulddn’t be so sure we have an actual origin story here. The Joker is clearly an unreliable narrator.

SaltHarvest
SaltHarvest
Thu, Oct 17, 2019 9:25pm

There are a lot of things wrong with this trash pile of a review… but in keeping solidarity with the garbageman strike… let’s just a toss a couple of pieces around for fun.

This is a movie so dull, so obvious, that that is the most criminal thing about its portrait of a man “driven” to criminality by “society.”

I, too, hate socialism.

Thanks, I hate it.

Good, it helps to let it out every once in awhile rather than keeping it in.

In a different world this movie would get an Oscar, but we are not in that world.

CB
CB
Wed, Oct 23, 2019 8:06pm

Sounds like you can get the full Joker experience by watching the interviews of the director complaining it’s impossible to be irreverent or shocking in comedy anymore because everyone is so sensitive at the same time It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia is starting its 14th season.

Tonio Kruger
Tonio Kruger
reply to  CB
Thu, Oct 24, 2019 12:38am

Yeah, everyone knows that 21st century pop culture never challenges cultural taboos. Especially when it’s trying to be funny.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5wFS6Gnkk4

Lucy Gillam
Sun, Nov 10, 2019 4:50pm

You know, I admit to some blasphemy as a Batfamily fan: the Joker is one of my least favorite villains, in no small part because it beggars belief that someone hasn’t popped him yet. But turning him into an incel? Good grief.

Lucy Gillam
Sun, Nov 10, 2019 5:12pm

YES! It’s like when Rob Zombie gave Michael Myers an abusive childhood. Part of the reason Michael Myers is so scary is that there’s nothing you can pin his behavior on: he’s just evil, and seemingly was born that way. THAT’S scary.

Akshat
Akshat
Fri, Nov 22, 2019 11:18am

I really dont understand the point of watching this movie from a political point of view. Go read Batman: The killing joke and then watch the movie. Maybe then you may understand what the movie is trying to convey

Danielm80
Danielm80
reply to  Akshat
Fri, Nov 22, 2019 11:23am

Wow, B1 (2017 Bingo card) and O2 (2015) in just a few short sentences.

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  Akshat
Fri, Nov 22, 2019 4:19pm

Oh, honey: If you think ANYTHING related to Batman isn’t political and shouldn’t be seen as political, it’s only because you exist in a bubble of privilege that protects you from having to deal with any of the shit that this character and related characters have ever been about.

But why don’t you tell us what you think this movie is trying to convey, why there’s nothing political about that, and why no one should look at it politically.

I’ll wait…

Brit Bloke
Brit Bloke
reply to  MaryAnn Johanson
Sun, Jun 20, 2021 7:37am

it’s only because you exist in a bubble of privilege that protects you

Are you under the impression that child abuse and mental illness have a socioeconomic boundary? That affluent people aren’t ever the victims of crime?

Out of curiosity, have you ever supported yourself working a punch-clock type job? I don’t mean a temporary part-time summer job, I mean you paid bills and rent that way. Ever waited tables, drove a delivery truck, any kind “everyman/woman” type of job for years?

You talk about “privilege” a lot. Would it be accurate to assume you’ve never once changed the transmission fluid in a car – wouldn’t have the vaguest idea where to begin and are completely repulsed by the notion of doing so, never installed a new water heater or toilet, so much as sharpened a lawnmower blade – because you’ve always had the privilege of some man – often a white man – doing it for you whether paid or voluntarily?

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  Brit Bloke
Sun, Jun 20, 2021 9:23pm

Are you under the impression that child abuse and mental illness have a socioeconomic boundary?

No, I am not under that impression. Are YOU under the impression that there is no difference in how such things are approached and treated depending how much money and privilege you have?

Would it be accurate to assume you’ve never once changed the transmission fluid in a car – wouldn’t have the vaguest idea where to begin and are completely repulsed by the notion of doing so, never installed a new water heater or toilet, so much as sharpened a lawnmower blade – because you’ve always had the privilege of some man – often a white man – doing it for you whether paid or voluntarily?

No, it would not be accurate. I have done plenty of my own repairs — to cars, to toilets — without any help from a man. Paid or not.

so much as sharpened a lawnmower blade

LOL. You think there isn’t privilege in having a lawn?

Kagan Plant
Kagan Plant
Sat, Dec 14, 2019 12:57am

Unbelievably good film. Phoneix is sensational (as expected, since he is the best screen actor on the planet), cinematograpahy gorgeous, set design off the scale, story hopelessly + depressingly believable, soundtrack flawless. Honestly, the best new film I have seen for years. I pity you that you’re so entrenched and suffocated by your dogma that you can’t appreciate high art.

MaryAnn Johanson
Sun, Jan 05, 2020 4:47pm

I think we know: the “average viewer” is a straight white cis able-bodied man. Which actually defines a minority of humans, but our culture — which is run by those guys — trains those guys to believe that that are the “default,” “neutral” human. And they REALLY don’t like to hear that that is, in fact, not the case at all.

Bluejay
Bluejay
Sat, Mar 21, 2020 9:14pm

Just rewatched 10 Things I Hate About You while sheltering in place, and wanted to report: Heath Ledger danced on the steps first. :-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7N6kB11GpE

Brit Bloke
Brit Bloke
Fri, Jun 18, 2021 11:10am

This is a movie so dull, so obvious, that that is the most criminal thing about its portrait of a man “driven” to criminality by “society.” Oh, is Arthur Fleck (Joaquin Phoenix: Mary Magdalene, Irrational Man) — soon to be the homicidal antagonist to Batman known as the Joker — sad? Is he lonely? Is his life not what he’d hoped it would be? Welcome to humanity, asshole. Deal with it.

Wow, you didn’t bother to examine or ponder the details…at all. It’s obvious you’re determined to view it through a particular lens – clearly your glasses only have a left lens. You manage to smuggle race and misandry into the first sentence.

I freeze-framed to read as much as possible of his mother’s letter to Thomas Wayne and also the case file he took but the high points were covered in the dialogue.

There’s a *lot* more going on with Arthur than being some slob who wants the world handed to him. He’s dealing with some real problems he doesn’t have control over. He was viciously abused as a child and finds out that his mother who he’s been taking care of did nothing to protect him from someone she brought into contact with Arthur. I gather as he’s learning of this some memories of the abuse come back to him and/or he begins to see it with the clearer context of his mother’s involvement. It turns out what he at first thinks is a revelation about Thomas Wayne being his father is a lie or at least a delusion on the part of his mother. And it’s not the only falsehood his mother has been perpetrating.

Yeah, he works at trying to be a comedian. He gives it an earnest effort but he’s hampered by psychological handicaps and a lack of talent.

Is his life not what he’d hoped it would be? Welcome to humanity, asshole. Deal with it

The problem is he lacks the mechanisms to deal with it. I guess you missed that he was seeing a mental health counselor and was on meds. I take it you didn’t catch his journal entry where he says “The worst part about having a mental illness is people expect you to behave as if you don’t.”

You seem to be projecting some bitterness of your own. Seems you would feel some common ground with and empathy for someone struggling to be successful and gain notoriety in a niche pursuit.

MaryAnn Johanson
reply to  Brit Bloke
Sun, Jun 20, 2021 9:30pm

It’s obvious you’re determined to view it through a particular lens

And you think you don’t see ANY film through your own particular lens?

He’s dealing with some real problems he doesn’t have control over.

We all are. And yet, most of us don’t turn to violent crime. Why is that, do you think?

I guess you missed that he was seeing a mental health counselor and was on meds.

Sure. I guess I missed a thing that is depicted in the film. That must be behind what I’ve written here.

The problem is he lacks the mechanisms to deal with it.

You’re so close to getting it…

Joshua Mcclure
Joshua Mcclure
Tue, Nov 12, 2024 12:05am

Hallelujah, I think that this post nearly took most all my thoughts about the insipid and lifeless and pathetic excuse for a bit budget film about one of the coolest protagonists and rendered him a useless pussy cat chunk-flap.

How did this shit happen??? How could such a great character that most everyone else that played the Joker, did a good to excellent job and then this good actor comes along and turns the Joker into such a pussy, mewling over having a roof over his head, food in his belly, and without any overbearing issues to give adequate cause to flip the script and blow shit or people up and he just seems to have everyday kinda problems most of us in the developed worlds have…………..was the explanation in the climactic scene where he was on the television show and tells the audience that he was not being paid enough attention – not as a kid but an ADULT!?!? .. Are you fucking serious?? Oh…..nobody gave you enough attention? Oh now yo are gonna show them huh? What a colossal dip shit of a villain. Such a disappointing outcome for a movie that has some of the greater potentialities and budgets to be so flipping rad.
Not a good job director. Not a good job Mr. actor. You both momentarily fucking ruined popular cultures depiction of the Joker for the time being, and hopefully somebody will address this issue with a better movie sometime soon, because your movie gave me nothing but dumb chills throughout.