I’m “biast” (con): nothing
I have not read the source material
(what is this about? see my critic’s minifesto)
Ironically, a movie about a 26th-century robot warrior girl assembled from scavenged bits and pieces and reanimated by a (slightly) mad scientist is a hellish Frankenstein monster of processed entertainment product devoid of personality and soul. (This is probably unfair to Frankenstein’s monster, who had more soul than Frankenstein did, but I’m sticking with the metaphor.) Alita: Battle Angel is an unholy mashup of Blade Runner, Rollerball, Robocop, and The Terminator… all of which, it must be noted, predate the 1990 Japanese manga by Yukito Kishiro this is based upon. So it’s not like all of the blame can go exclusively to director and cowriter Robert Rodriguez (Sin City: A Dame to Kill For, Machete Kills) or producer and cowriter James Cameron (Avatar, Aliens of the Deep). That hints of more recent dystopias such as Wall-E, Elysium, and Divergent also infest this disaster might be slightly more forgivable; maybe they were copying the graphic novel, right? (I doubt it.) But that still does not excuse filmmakers who have been as uniquely inventive as Rodriguez and Cameron from wallowing like this in a stew of borrowed ideas and imagery. And doing absolutely nothing fresh with them.
The only thing onscreen here that doesn’t look and feel like stuff we’ve seen before — a lot — is the bizarrely big-eyed face of cyborg Alita (CGI’d Rosa Salazar: Maze Runner: The Death Cure, CHiPs), who has a human brain but not, it seems, any other meat bits. She’s just a mostly human-looking head (except for those eyes!) and a bit of torso when Dr. Dyson Ido (Christoph Waltz: Downsizing, The Legend of Tarzan) scoops her out of the scrapyard below the floating utopian metropolis of Zalem, “last of the great sky cities,” where all Zalem’s rubbish gets dumped. Alita — as Ido dubs the amnesiac girl after he’s taken her back to his cybernetics lab and given her the spare robot body he happened to have, because of Reasons, just lying around — is also “the last of her kind,” and a Big Bad from up in Zalem will eventually come after her and the lost high-tech she represents. So, like, why did she get thrown out in Zalem’s garbage in the first place? (If Ido, in the poor slum of Iron City on the ground, has the ability and the knowledge to recognize what Alita is, then there’s no question that the people of Zalem would recognized her for what she is, too.) That the Big Bad, played briefly onscreen by Edward Norton (Isle of Dogs, Collateral Beauty), looks so much like James Cameron that at first I thought it was James Cameron gave me the icky creeps. Why is Cameron inserting himself into a story about chasing a big-eyed teenage girl around?
Ugh! I was trying to talk about Alita’s eyes and instead I fell into a spiral of trying to unpick the nonsense going on here: the stuff that makes no sense; the stuff that, I fear, makes way too much unpleasant sense. Anyway, it’s plain that Alita’s inhumanly big eyes are meant to reflect the character’s manga roots… except everybody has huge eyes in Japanese comics. Here, only Alita does. Not even the other cyborgs, of which there are many, have eyes like that. One could argue that the big eyes were an aesthetic choice on the part of her centuries-ago makers; and, indeed, we do see in the flashback memories that Alita later experiences that her fellow cyborg warriors also had the same huge eyes. But that doesn’t cut it as a creative decision on the part of the filmmakers. Because — as with Robocop and Blade Runner — Alita wants us to think about what it means to be human, and yet it goes out of its way to drop us right into an uncanny valley that distances us from the humanity that it is, at least obliquely, arguing for on Alita’s behalf.
Alita fails in that regard, too, because the only character who even approaches coming across as an actual person here is Waltz’s Ido, a charming, melancholy figure with a complex backstory and plausible, if sometimes clichéd, motivations. The film is a lot more sympathetic to him than it is to Alita, who is nothing but a naive blank slate — literally: she remembers nothing of her past before Ido reanimated her — left to the mercy of the lies and manipulations of the men around her… including those of the charming Ido. But it’s even worse than that: Alita is the epitome of cinema’s problem of the Strong Female Character, the demand for which the male filmmakers who dominate Hollywood have taken not to mean “psychologically robust, flawed human people who happen to be women” but, literally, physically strong, aggressive fighters, as long as they’re still “hot.” Ass-kicking babes have become something of a fetish onscreen, and Alita is little more than that.
There is, of course, nothing inherently wrong with a female character who is physically strong and an able warrior; the problem is when that’s all she is. And this is the totality of Alita as a character: she is nothing but a robot warrior, and she doesn’t even have to work at it; she just automatically, instinctively uses whatever training — or, more insidiously, programming — she once had. And naturally, because she’s a robot, not a meatbag woman with a body of flesh and bone, she’s not “offputtingly” muscular or even physically threatening until she leaps into action: she’s still slim and, with the help of those huge eyes, cute. (Alita is an example of another trope that needs to die: Born Sexy Yesterday.) Cameron didn’t use to have a problem creating well-rounded female characters who were also physically capable of keeping up with men; see Ellen Ripley and Sarah Connor. What happened? (Laeta Kalogridis [Terminator Genisys, Shutter Island] is also credited as a screenwriter, but there’s no evidence of her influence at all. The less said, for example, about the appalling way that Jennifer Connelly’s [Only the Brave, Spider-Man: Homecoming] scientist is treated here, the better.)
Because Alita is so powerful, she can sign up to be one of Iron City’s “hunter-warrior” bounty hunters, and then train to play in the “Motorball” arena, where cyborgs battle for the acclaim of the city and the right to ascend to Zalem. Which means that an ungodly amount of the unconscionably two-hour-22-minute runtime of this movie is given over to robot battles of one sort or another. Often these are incomprehensible. More often the justifications for them are buried under a mountain of world-building infodumps. Characters — meatbag and cyborg — undergo ridiculous changes of heart, particularly in the final few minutes of the film, as if everyone involved suddenly realized they needed to start wrapping things up. And still Alita ends with the threat of a sequel. Better if it just __END__
Fact check: the film isn’t 2 hours and 22 minutes. Also, this might not mean anything; but *the thing* that happens to Jennifer Connelly’s scientist also happens in the manga, apparently. I’m shocked it made it in to a PG-13 film.
IMDB says 122m, Rotten Tomatoes says 125m, the Irish Times says 121m, and the first Google search result for “Alita run time” does say 2h 22m. Maybe it’s as long as you feel it is. :-)
Nah. I saw the film at the 9:30pm showtime and was out of the theater at 11:30pm on the dot (I even stayed through the credits to see if there was something after); I was even able to catch my train.
The industry materials I have state the runtime as 2:22. Whatever the actual runtime, it is too damn long.
The “thing” you are referring to is the least of the problems with Connelly’s character, and how she is treated by the film. And so what if that “thing” is also in the source material? That doesn’t excuse anything.
It actually isn’t in the source material, I have been a fan of the manga for over 15 years, So I think I’m pretty reliable when I say that Daisuke Ido’s wife didn’t even exist in the story, Until her character was created for the 1993. OVA in order to create drama between characters that was IMO completely usless and didn’t serve the plot well. I’d also argue that Alita as a character is actually a subversion of the Born Sexy yesterday plot, as she pretty much tells Ido that she doesn’t want to live the safe and comfortable life he had imagined for her but wants to live as her own person and make her own choices regardelss of how he feels about them. Unfortunately, the movie didn’t establish that subverion of the trope as well as the manga did, the manga did it a lot better in my opinion. In fact, I think people should just go and read the original manga, it’s a much better story in every capacity compared to the western bastardization of the source material….
Maybe not, but I tell you, it didn’t feel a minute under 4 hours.
As a teen, I was a huge fan of the manga (the stuff before Last Order at least), so I was initially thrilled when this was announced more than 15 years ago. Unfortunately, I later found out that Cameron’s first encounter with the source material was the OVAs which try to cram way too much story into two half-hour episodes. When Rodriiguez, who’s about as male-gazey as director’s get, was attached, I was even more worried. Then I found out that Cameron was writing the thing more or less by himself, and I pretty much lost all hope. I’ll watch it eventually for free at the library, but it isn’t getting any of my money.
The strengths of the manga are the over the top violence and gore (if you’re into that kind of thing), the (admittedly hamfisted and info-dumpy) way that Alita learns the motivations of a series of foils during battles that develop her from a naive child into a self-confident athlete/mercenary, the moral questions surrounding a populist uprising against the elites of Tiphares, and the gradual uncovering of mysteries surrounding the social order in her world and the true identity of her creator(s).
The only two aspects of the manga successfully translated to the OVAs are the violence and a fidelity to the general look of the world and characters. It sounds as if this movie is based primarily on the OVAs except with toned down violence and even worse writing (and the writing is pretty disjointed and tonally inconsistent in the OVAs). The horrific treatment of Ido’s scientist ex-girlfriend is taken directly from the source material – it’s the first thing anyone with half a brain would have changed in any decent adaptation. It’s disturbing that it was left in when so many other things weren’t.
This seems like a case of Cameron and Rodriguez liking the source material for terrible, superficial reasons and assuming that everyone else would find the same aspects cool that they did over twenty years ago (a bit like the Wachowskis and Speed Racer). It’s a shame, the materials were there for a fresh feminist adaptation – I really hope Cameron allowed some impartial writers to give him an honest critique of his Avatar sequel scripts, cuz this does not bode well. I know it’s wrong, but I can’t help hoping this and all the Avatar movies flop horribly – it would give The World of Avatar section of Disney World unintentional tragic gravitas, like that planet at the end of Die Haarteppichknüpfer.
The manga series is a story from Japan in 1990, written into the very segmented market that prevailed at the time and to some extent still does: if you’re a teenage girl, you aren’t supposed to be reading seinen manga, just as teenage boys aren’t supposed to be reading josei. This is not to excuse, it’s to say that nobody involved in making this adaptation could have been under the slightest illusion that it would be anything other than a Boy Story, unless they went to a lot of trouble to alter it.
And let’s face it, we have plenty of those already.
Battle Angel Alita: the Cool Parts Version”
I’ve never read the manga, but the episodic nature of the film tells me that Cameron and Rodriguez basically took a Reddit thread of “Remember when [cool thing] happened in volume #[y]?” and strung those scenes together, without bothering to import any of the material that got the characters to those cool things. Possibly because doing so would have made the movie like 8 hours long. So these episodes all run together, with no logical or dramatic connection, when they’re not running concurrently in order to squeeze a couple more in.
Nothing matters in this movie. After one of the longest 2 hours I can recall in a theater, I have no idea what any of the characters want or why they want it. I suppose a couple of characters have a motivation of “I want to live in the nicer part of town”, but the audience is explicitly and repeatedly told that this is “the one rule that can’t be broken”, and they’re both dead by the end of them movie anyway. So many characters, in a movie drowning in characters, end up dead, and their deaths have so little meaning to our protagonist, that one wonders why they were introduced in the first place.
I’ve read this elsewhere, and I’ll repeat it here: the first thing this script needed to do was to excise the entire Hugo character and plot line. It was predictable and stupid long before that terrifying-for-all-the-wrong-reasons literal heart in hand scene. In fact, I’d toss everything involving Chiren and
Murderballsorry, Motorball as well.Weirdly, in a movie with a lot of excellent effects work, the Alita effect is never convincing. If anything, her eyes are the least problematic. The textures of her real and artificial skin are cartoonish. Her body is completely out of proportion with itself. She has no sense of weight, despite the audience being told she’s heavy. She doesn’t seem to occupy the same space as the other characters. Everyone’s sightlines feel off, despite Rosa Salazar bing on set in a mo-cap suit. And Salazar’s habit of dropping her voice to a contralto growl at random intervals is incongruous to the rest of the character.
This is a movie desperate to be the first in a series, and terrified that it won’t get the chance to get to all the cool stuff. Methinks that’s going to become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Well, as we saw when MaryAnn was still reviewing Doctor Who, the basic idea of a series of cool things strung together is clearly enough for some audiences these days.
We’ll see what happens this weekend, I guess, but this doesn’t feel like one of those films like Scott Pilgrim or Ghost in the Shell where the comic is recent enough that it’ll get rabid fanboy defenders.
Is anyone defending “Ghost in the Shell”?
I’ve just had a quick skim of the comments to MaryAnn’s review of that – the positive ones mostly seemed to be saying “you don’t get GitS” rather than “this was a great film”.
Huh, my recollection of the zeitgeist around it was that the movie didn’t understand its source material, and that the casting of Johansson was both a shameless whitewashing and a waste of her talents. Either way, Ghost tanked so hard seismic detectors in Antarctica could hear it. For all its (considerable) faults, Alita has already exceeded GitS‘s domestic gross.
Yeah, that part where they fall out of a goofy bar-fight into a broken man’s life struggle was pretty jarring.
Later on I thought it was pretty funny how Alita forcefully leaves the tracks of one story to get to another, which is more reminiscent of how I play open-world rpgs than anything else I can think of.
Indeed these are precisely the two moments where it stood out most for me.
That’s a real shame, because one of the strengths of the manga was the villains’ motivations and points-of-view and how it molds Alita.
I remember being excited for this movie when I first heard Cameron was on it, however many years ago that was… but then I remembered the Cameron of Aliens and Terminator was gone. Still had a bit of hope when it seemed like it was finally happening… but then I saw it had both the first major villain, Hugo, and Motorball in it and was like nope, this movie is doomed for exactly the reasons you’re describing — and then all the reasons MaryAnn brings up that I wasn’t expecting but am not surprised about. :P
There’s so much crap in this film to sift through but every scene where the film ogles Alita’s robot body is literally the worst cliche. Like where the doctors are checking Alita out and commenting on her new chest plate, or where Alita talks about how sensitive her new murder-fists are while her not-boyfriend feels her up. The best one, though is where Alita offers her literal beating heart to the boy she met last Tuesday so he can sell it on the black market for a helicopter ride.
Yup, seriously flawed film.
At the risk of reopening the whole “but a cyborg doesn’t HAVE to be Asian” debate (*headdesk*), I just want to voice frustration at yet another film adaptation of a story with clearly Asian roots, which for some reason is afraid to put any Asian actors in significant roles. The boy Yugo seemed pretty Japanese to me in the manga series, but — surprise, surprise — he’s white boy “Hugo” here. (But maybe they just wanted to cast the best bland, forgettable actor for the job.) As for Alita, Rosa Salazar does a decent job, but c’mon — Lana Condor is already in the cast (in a completely throwaway role), and she’s a good actor, and she’s STANDING RIGHT THERE. Sigh.
Other thoughts (spoiler alert):
I’ve only read the omnibus (first volume) and haven’t seen the anime, but it looked to me as if the film tried to mash together three or four story arcs instead of focusing on making a good adaptation of the first one, about Alita discovering bounty-hunting and her feud with the crazy worm-head cyborg inhabiting bodies and eating brains (that character was in the film, but with way less interesting backstory and motivations). The film seemed diluted and didn’t lean into the crazy enough.
I guess at least it’s the guy who gets fridged at the end for a change, to motivate the female character? Grasping at straws here.
I also seem to remember that the dog survives in the manga. Not cool, movie! NOT. COOL.
You understand that the manga isn’t based in Japan, right?
It takes place in America in the far future.
You understand that Asian-Americans exist, right?
“You understand that Asian-Americans exist, right?”
Sigh. Affirmative action — which you seem to be championing with nothing statements like the one you just made — is the most dubious pyramid scheme ever invented.
No, it is not—affirmative action was never a “scheme”—please look up the meaning of it and how it really works, since you obviously have no real understanding of it, or even a clue of what it is. That’s a ridiculous statement. The point being that, every time a manga is remade by Hollywood, it rarely has any Asian-Americans (or Asians) in the main roles, and is usually whitewashed. Wanting a film to be diverse and not just the same old white-dominated films you usually see from Hollywood isn’t “affirmative action”, it’s simply wanting a film to reflect the many diverse peoples in the world, or people that aren’t white (like Black Panther, which was a huge success.)
As one of about five people in the world who unconditionally loves the Wachowski’s Speed Racer, I still believe it’s possible to make a great “live-action” movie from manga/anime (even though Speed Racer is the only one I’ve liked). I’m going to use a free ticket to see Alita this week, despite Rodriguez being a known pathogen.
Regarding James Cameron, has anyone watched True Lies recently? If you want a glimpse into the abyss (I swear that pun wasn’t intended), give that another look. It’s one of the most evil films Hollywood has ever produced. As well as the unbearable racism, the insane misogyny plays like a man who’s upset because his wife’s left him so he gets $120 million to act out his manbaby boo-hoo ‘snot fair tantrum on film. In 2017 when Wonder Woman came out, Cameron was still breaking his arm patting himself on the back for his amazing heroines. He needs to be reminded that he also made True Lies. Holding off comments on Alita’s portrayal of women until I see for myself.
I’m hoping you’ll review Can You Ever Forgive Me? so that I’ll be able to make a wholly positive comment here. That was a sensational film.
To be fair, True Lies wasn’t written by Cameron, and was a remake of an already fairly sexist French film. I do remember several industry heads patting themselves on the back for being ultra progressive by allowing the “ancient” 35 year old Curtis to be a sex symbol and not use a body double. “Wow even an old lady can be sexy!” seemed to be the general consensus in Hollywood at the time. I get your point though, it’s a horrific movie in retrospect. I remember it being the first Arnold-headed movie I didn’t enjoy (yeah, that’s right, I actually liked Last Action Hero).
Don’t feel bad for liking Speed Racer – there are lots of people who feel it did a great job capturing the essence of what they loved about the original show. I imagine there are many fans of the Alita OVAs that feel the same way about this film. I’m just hoping that when some of them inevitably come here in an angry, defensive huff that they’re able to communicate what they found engaging. The one thing I noticed in the trailer that is an improvement is the absence of Alita’s perpetually pouted lips. It always struck me as silly and moe-ish in the manga/OVAs.
How is that a defense? James Cameron makes relatively few films, and he chooses carefully what material he’s going to direct. He chose to film material that many people find objectionable. If he had decided to adapt Mein Kampf—even if someone else wrote the screenplay—would you say that he had no choice but to be faithful to the book?
That’s a good analogy, and you’re right – he chose the material and adapted the film himself. At least in the case of Alita, Kalogridis shares some of the credit/blame, and Cameron chose material that was not as inherently sexist to work with.
For some reason, I was imagining a bigwig handing Cameron the task of adapting the film like a regular employee, conveniently forgetting that Cameron is the biggest wig in town (Can you imagine if he and Rowling made a movie together? What a beautiful disaster). I was overeager to one-up Stacy on film trivia and didn’t think before commenting. Thank you for the correction Daniel. Sorry Stacy, my bad.
No worries! I’d actually forgotten True Lies was a remake.
Having kept a few toes in anime fandom since the early 90’s, it feels like I’ve been hearing about James Cameron’s Alita movie for well over twenty years. Along with the similarly long-mooted live-action Akira, every media mention was greeted with a shrug and, ‘We’ll believe it when it starts filming’. There have been so many terrible Japanese live-action movies based on anime or manga since then that for many anime fans, especially of my vintage (late thirties), the former excitement at the prospect of seeing live-action anime movies has turned into almost resentment. The shrugging continues.
I share your sense of resignation when it comes to anime adaptations. At first I optimistically believed that Cameron would be the one to finally get it right (he might be the first to find commercial success, which is nice, but I’d rather have a good film too). If he had directed and let someone besides Laeta “I found a way to make Birds of Prey boring” Kalogridis and himself do most of the writing, this would’ve had a better chance.
My issue is that the qualities that draw me to anime don’t seem to translate well to live action features (or haven’t yet). The fluidity of the camera movement, the grace of the combat, the stylized costumes, the bold oversaturated colors, the simplified/exaggerated emotions, the slow burn character development, the sympathetic villains, the hilarious mid-battle infodumpage (well, maybe not that last one).
In some ways, the MCU/Spiderman movies are more anime-like than official anime adaptations when it comes to characters and plot because you see the characters change over the course of several films, and the themes/conflicts are very broad and soap-opera-ish. Some of the web-swinging shots in Spiderman movies capture the weightless, graceful freedom of a good anime action sequence too.
Recent anime adaptations often follow the action scenes of the source material shot for shot, but the actors/CG never posses quite the same physical grace of drawn animations and/or trained martial artists. The costumes and settings are typically more drab (although OG Alita is pretty drab to begin with), and they lack a strong unifying theme, transition poorly, and paint their villains with buckets of boring, generic evil sauce.
They remind me of a stereotypical kung fu flick in which the action scenes are established first, and all the connective tissue is just an afterthought. I like filmmakers who start with character, then move on to story, and tackle action only at points where it develops organically. The climactic battles at the season finale of a good anime/manga series are emotionally powerful because you understand the stakes for the hero/heroine and the foil – you’ve been on a journey with the characters for many hours and seen them develop their personalities along with their skills.
That’s why the Thanos vs. Dr. Strange and co. fight is my favorite MCU fight scene. We know these characters and what they’ve been through and their fighting techniques combine in meaningful ways and reflect/reinforce their development. Without personal stakes, careful character building, or understandable motivations from all parties, these feature-length adaptations are just more soulless roller coaster rides (*cough* Ghost in the Shell), and Hollywood doesn’t need any helping hands from anime to crank those out (*sneeze* Aquaman *gargle* Ready Player One).
Plus, if Cameron is going to make a science fiction movie, it would be nice to have at least one or two novel scientific ideas to accompany all that post-apocalyptic, cyber-noir, transhuman fictional window dressing. I’ve got a wild idea I wish more blockbuster sci-fi directors would borrow: “In the distant future, when the boundary between human and machine… is blurred… and reality itself… is in the eye of the programmer, two or more women… will find a way… to be valued for more than their youthful appearance, proclivity for violence, and perceived fuckability, and this time their conversations… are personal.” It’s radical I know, but I think it could work (I know, I know Annihilation flopped, but it was a good movie).
Robert Rodriguez is also credited as a screenwriter on *Alita.*
Eesh, I didn’t know. That might explain the creepy meatbag ogling. I feel like Rodriguez has made movies for 9-14 year old boys for his entire career. Kalogridis wrote Shutter Island and Terminator Genisys, so subtlety and strong character development are definitely not her strong suits. She might be a fantastic person, but I’ve disliked everything she’s written so far (I haven’t seen any of Altered Carbon yet). I watched an interview with Rodriguez and Cameron hyping this film and got the impression that Cameron chose Rodriguez because he saw in him a younger a version of himself. He’s never gonna grow as a writer/director if he surrounds himself with mini-me’s and yes-people. I’d be curious to learn what Kalogridis’ specific contributions were. Were there any scenes that were potentially effective taken out of context with the rest of the movie?
I missed one line of dialogue. Can someone help me out? Dr. Ido walks into a bar right in the middle of a fight and says…something…that’s dramatic enough to break it up. Can somebody tell me what he said?
Heh. Okay, that part was funny. “No more free repairs!”
J.K. Rowling included lots of traditional folklore in her stories, but she also added Quidditch and howlers and pensieves and Death Eaters and all sorts of other original ideas. What did this movie add?
Also, “So what?” isn’t an argument.
The “kick-ass babe” trope is problematic for a lot of reasons (including, as MaryAnn points out, no characterization beyond “strong” and “hot”). But usually the “unrealistic” complaint is only made about the women, without recognizing that the men in similar stories are unrealistic too. Charlize Theron’s character in Atomic Blonde is a specially trained agent who beat up a lot of guys (and got pretty badly beaten up herself); how is this more “unrealistic” than a million movies about kick-ass male action heroes like James Bond? Is Wonder Woman, with divine blood and special powers, more unrealistic than Batman, playboy billionaire who dresses as a rodent and beats up crooks at night because he’s sad his parents died? Is it hard to believe that Black Widow, a trained-from-childhood Russian assassin, can kick ass, but easier to believe that Hawkeye can face down an alien army with a bow and a dozen arrows?
Yeah, most women can’t do what these heroines do; what the complainers usually choose to ignore is that most men can’t do what all the male heroes do either. Might as well enjoy a story that’s unrealistic for ALL genders involved.
Well said. I phrased the argument a little differently back in 2017: I5.
You actually never said that before.
People relate to female protagonists that have well-written personalities, period. They don’t have to be “feminine” or “nurturing” or “motherly.” Ripley was a great protagonist in the first Alien, before she ever met Newt.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KQACh4Yv_k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4S-D-jofrcM
https://www.sportsjoe.ie/mma/tara-larosa-internet-troll-full-fight-148317
But regardless of anyone’s real-life abilities, we’re talking Hollywood fights. And they’re ALL unrealistic. No one can actually do what Batman or James Bond or John Wick do, physically and psychologically, day after day, fight after fight, onscreen. At least, anyone who tried it in real life wouldn’t last very long. But again, we give the male characters a break, and we nitpick on the women. I wonder why.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/dark-knight-shift-why-bat/
Honest question: Did you raise the same sort of objections about the Untouchables characters or the skinny actors who played Spider-Man or James McAvoy in Wanted?
Remember, we’re talking about MOVIE fights here. And I hate to break it to you, but THEY’RE ALL STAGED. Again, nobody can actually be Batman. Not even you. Not if you tried for the rest of your life.
LOL. “If the man wins, it’s only natural. If the woman wins, well, it doesn’t count, because a DIFFERENT man would have beat her!” Yeah, you’re not moving any goalposts at all, I’m sure.
Talk is easy, tough guy. Go do it, and show me the footage.
LOL! Hey everyone, looks like we got one of those idiots here.
I’ll just leave this here:
http://aidanmoher.com/blog/featured-article/2013/05/we-have-always-fought-challenging-the-women-cattle-and-slaves-narrative-by-kameron-hurley/
And I’m done.
For me, the fight scenes in Atomic Blonde are ridiculous and unappealing not because a person wouldn’t actually be hurt by the moves (Jackie Chan, Jet Li, and Yukari Oshima fights are full of silly, unrealistic attacks and they can be fantastically entertaining), but because the fights are poorly edited to hide the actor’s lack of skill. There’s also a noticeable difference in the ability of the primary actors and the stunt-men and women surrounding them (the light saber fight in The Last Jedi comes to mind). This video goes into some of the mistakes modern editors make:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1PCtIaM_GQ
Most famous actors are not martial artists and vice versa. Theron has a dancing background and has a great work ethic, as many actors do, and even she looks clumsy compared to someone who has trained for many years (not surprisingly). I find The Matrix, John Wick, Jason Bourne, and Charlie’s Angels action scenes equally as silly and boring as those in Atomic Blonde – they also use quick takes, early cuts, close-ups, shaky cam, bad angles, slow motion 360 views, all stylistic choices used to conceal the truth that the actors lack grace and ability. The bathroom fight in the last Mission Impossible wasn’t horrible, mostly due to Liang Yang’s experience, but that’s the last mainstream American action movie I can remember that had a moderately entertaining fight.
I actually made a list of some of the ways to maintain interest in a fight scene several years ago when commenting on the review of Kung Fu Panda 2 of all movies:
https://www.flickfilosopher.com/2011/06/kung-fu-panda-2-review.html
The only people who actually want to see a realistic fight between people are sadists and UFC fans. Most sane moviegoers want to see interesting, inventive fights with real stakes between characters with believable motivations who both possess a degree of grace and ideally, have a unique fighting style related to (or diametrically opposed to) their personality. A good fight scene is like an interpretive dance with rhythm, humor, character, and surprises. As long as the choreography is good and the dancers gracefully express their character in their movements, it doesn’t matter if the fighters are men or women (or pandas), the director and editors will have the confidence to show the audience the dance without resorting to cheap tricks, and the audience of human beings hardwired to distinguish skilled humans from CG and/or a famous actor with a couple months of training will be entertained.
All that said, if you gotta mo-cap a martial artist and digitally paste the actor’s head on a CG body to get a nice wide shot, better that than the visually muddled, repetitive garbage we typically get when people try to do their own stunts. In the old days, the most difficult moves in female martial arts movies were sometimes done by stuntmen in wigs. Whatever it takes to get the shot. The problem arises when there’s no human defining the movements and the action is all CG puppetry – people notice janky physics immediately – think of the last fight in Black Panther or the wide shots in Alita and Ghost in the Shell. Sure, some of the movements are not humanly possible, but they still need believable weight and momentum. It’s one of those things that’s very hard to get right in a “realistic” live action movie, but easy to spot when done poorly.
Cruise is one of the only modern famous actors who really gives it his all and expresses himself in his action scenes, probably because he’s insane. Of course, Donnie Yen and Michelle Yeoh are both amazing action stars. I respect Theron and Reeves and Damon (and Bale and Hardy) for trying, but someone should have stopped them. That said, even with subpar fights, the movies they’re in as a whole can still be entertaining. At the end of the day, I’d still rather see Theron awkwardly try to do something interesting and unrealistic with a shoe than be subjected to another of the dull, joyless “realistic,” fights that Mr. Crowder seems to prefer.
The thing is, Theron actually did get some real hard training in martial arts for at least six months before shooting the film, so that’s pretty much her doing her own fighting in the film—and she did a pretty damn good job,too. Which makes me wonder if you actually saw the film at all. That entire fight scene where she has to beat up all these agents coming at her has no cutaways or CGI at all—it’s all filmed directly close-up, so you see every hit, kick, and punch. Yen was also a trained martial artist before he started acting, which is why his fight scenes have always usually been so good in his movies.
Yup. Video proof:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JVLM89gRn0
And here’s the full 7-minute NO-CUTS fight scene:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAXrcFBJXjM
So I’m not sure what amanohyo’s on about regarding that film’s fights being “poorly edited to hide the actor’s lack of skill.” However those scenes were edited, it was NOT to hide any incompetence on Theron’s part.
“Theron has a dancing background and has a great work ethic, as many actors do, and even she looks clumsy compared to someone who has trained for many years.”
I respect the hard work that went into this scene, and I agree that the editing in this case was not done primarily to hide Theron’s lack of skill, but rather to highlight her dedication. There are even a couple moves that feel spontaneous and full of genuine passion and power. However, moment to moment, she generally looks (unsurprisingly) like someone who has memorized a sequence of motions, rather than someone who has extensive martial arts experience with a natural, effortless grace that comes from years of repetition.
To be fair, the gimmick of a long, unbroken shot in a fight scene is very difficult to pull off since the more interesting you make it, the more time consuming and expensive it becomes. I thought it was boring and monotonous in The Protector stairway fight (probably the scene that inspired this one), and equally boring and drawn out in Atomic Blonde. The hallway scene in Oldboy has better pacing and a sense of humor, but is also lot shorter and the fighters aren’t supposed to be professionals, so the awkward, exhausted, desperate movements are a plus. The shaky cam and bad angles in Atomic Blonde are partially stylistic choices, but they also obscure a lot of the impacts which make the scene feel like arthouse professional wrestling.
I grew up watching Hong Kong kung-fu movies, so when I watch a fight scene, I like to see inventive, joyful choreography, crisp unobscured wide shots, and actors that have martial arts training, or at least many years of experience doing stuntwork. When a character in a movie is supposed to be a martial arts expert or professional fighter, and they look like a person with a couple months of training going through the motions, it pulls me out of the movie. Chow Yun Fat’s fight scenes in Crouching Tiger are awful for the same reason. It’s not a dealbreaker – I love Highlander, and that has some of the worst swordfighting scenes of all time – it’s just disappointing especially in a movie that leans heavily on its action.
I’m not blaming Theron – she’s clearly giving it her all, but it doesn’t work for me because I start imagining what Michelle Yeoh, Yukari Oshima, or even Cynthia Rothrock (young Cynthia Rothrock, mind you) would do with the same scene. Imagine you were a huge ballet fan, and you had to watch Natalie Portman perform seven minutes of uninterrupted ballet surrounded by professional dancers intentionally slowing down and muddying up their movements while someone swirled the camera around in a circle and shook it for dramatic effect – that’s how I feel watching this. Maybe for some people it’s surprisingly good, like I don’t know, Ewan Mcgregor in Moulin Rouge, for me it feels more like Pierce Brosnan in Mama Mia.
To be fair, Theron actually trained for six months in order to do the marital arts scenes in Atomic Blonde, and it shows. I actually liked that sequence where she has to fight all these guys on the staircase, because it reminded me of the fight scenes in H.K. martial arts films, where you see a lot more of the actual fight, and with no constant crosscutting back and forth. That was actually a great, intense fight sequence—I really enjoyed it.
[Edited] Saw Alita today and… MOE!! Alita has literally been designed to appeal to the male gaze, or at least one kind of gaze that prizes pubescent waifishness and naivety. Those neotenic features distract the moe-minded from absence of character, but it doesn’t work on those tempered against it. Can’t fully disagree with many points in MaryAnn’s review or various comments here. But I definitely don’t regret seeing it. I thought it looked amazing. None of the CGI bothered me at all. Guess I can still delight in the mindless spectacle of a girl violently smacking down various opponents without decent narrative or characterisation to go along with it.
Nah, I’m good. YOU obviously need help understanding my actual point: This isn’t about biological differences, it’s about how viewers like you show their sexism when they nitpick women’s film fights while letting men’s film fights slide. Hollywood fights are ALL unrealistic and fake — supported by stunts, wires, harnesses, fake props, CGI, and choreographed and scripted to within an inch of their lives. ANY of those James Bond or Jason Bourne or John Wick fights, if they happened unscripted and unstaged in real life, wouldn’t last long because the protagonist would soon be seriously incapacitated or dead. No problem, it’s a movie, you accept it for entertainment value and enjoy the ride. But as soon as Charlize Theron beats up a bunch of guys, oh no! It’s UNREALISTIC! LOL.
Uh huh, keep telling yourself that, champ. I’m sure it’s a comforting thought, because you’ll never, ever be in a position to prove it.
I disagree.
Fuck off with your evopsych bullshit.
You really aren’t.
He’s quoting Rousey’s mother. But yeah, he isn’t either. :-)
Yeah, but he’s using her quote to apply to his own “reasoning,” too.
Got it.
You’re quoting a quote as if it was the person who posted the quite that said it lmao
She explained it, dude.
Name five.
lol. Every comment section, without fail.
So they hate her cuz she beautiful?
You literally killed me with your flawless logic.
It wasn’t a movie, it was a trilogy water-test strip. Remember M. Night’s The Last Airbender? This was the exact same deal, but with more polish.
In an interview James Cameron explicitly said (not that his confirmation was needed) that it’s chapter one of an intended series. I’d prefer they’d cut the romance with boring blonk boy and give that screentime to Alita going to Zalem and defeating James Cameron’s doppelganger Nova, all in this one movie, instead of pushing it as a franchise opener and leaving that thread dangling.
All of the things I liked the most were only briefly glimpsed, such as the flashback’s to Alita’s earlier life. That movie looked better than this one. In every scene where Alita was by herself, such as the too-brief sequence where she explores the derelict URM ship, I felt the movie elevate.
Your vocabulary is telling.
Says the guy who thinks he hunted the mammoth and is all bound up in his “me strong man, stronger than any woman!” identity.
Oh, is that what you think you’re doing? You think the “kick ass babe” trope is feminist? LOL.
I think it’s laughable to suggest consumers force themselves to enjoy a derivative product with visible flaws.
“Women beating men in films is unrealistic because men would beat them because we hunted the mammoth, dammit, and the kick-ass babe trope is just feminist posturing” is a political gripe.
Atomic Blonde, which you think is stupid, received generally favorable reviews and was a profitable hit. You just love to criticize blockbusters and you don’t know how to just enjoy a fun movie.
Jesus, no.
What is actually wrong with you?
That’s it. You are banned.
Analyzing the reviews on this website as of late; this critic is a biased social justice warrior. It wouldn’t surprise me if she is a collectivist, anti-capitalist, the-problem-is-the-world-NOT-ME agenda-supporting individual; this review reads like a feminist rant (pandering to the fake news CNN crowd). The only reason this review got a 0 star rating is because the film doesn’t have a man-debasing agenda. It wouldn’t surprise me to know that this critic supports Brie Larsons “inclusivity” charade and demands for “more woke reviews” and *limiting white men covering CM events*. I will eat a crow is Captain Marvel DOESN’T GET A 5-STAR rating and endless praise and adoration from this website.
Analyzing his comments on this website as of late; this commenter is a biased men’s rights activist. It wouldn’t surprise me if he is a libertarian, free-market, the-world-is-a-level-playing-field-meritocracy status-quo supporting individual; this comment reads like a misogynist rant (pandering to the conspiracy theory manosphere crowd). The only reason this comment is so negative is because the review doesn’t align with his political agenda. It wouldn’t surprise me to know that this commenter has made many comments falsely declaring Brie Larson to be “man-hating” and “anti-white” in an effort to prevent people from watching a movie he hasn’t even seen. I will eat an albatross if Captain Marvel reviews DON”T GET NEGATIVE COMMENTS (the suppressed rage bubbles over) endlessly attacking the reviewers personally instead of addressing the actual film.
Now what did either of us achieve by talking past each other and making wild assertions about our respective straw people? Brie Larson observed that white males are overrepresented in film journalism/promotion, tried to address the imbalance, and it triggered you because asymmetry in social power is difficult for some people to understand (including me sometimes) and it runs counter to your personal politics. MA is expressing her opinions and thoughts about this movie, which is her job. You are spending your free time inserting politics into a discussion without tying it to the movie – doing exactly what you claim to hate in a desperate effort to force a divide between the pop culture products you love and any real world implications.
I don’t know if you’re a fan of Jungian psychology, but people often have strong negative emotional reactions when they encounter aspects of their own personalities that are suppressed, ignored, and/or undervalued (remember Kevin Spacey’s neighbor in American Beauty?). For example, I’m triggered by irrational emotion and condescension because I dislike the fact that I’m driven by unconscious emotions and am overly self-important. I’m not sure if this applies in your case, but it’s something to consider before making angry comments to strangers in the future.
Classic leftist. Make no arguments, and instead throw baseless labels around. Let’s see here: libertarian (not an insult), free-market (still no an insult), the-world-is-a-level-playing-field-meritocracy status-quo (have you ever taken an economics class?).
“Brie Larson observed that white males are overrepresented in film journalism/promotion, tried to address the imbalance, and it triggered you because asymmetry in social power is difficult for some people to understand (including me sometimes) and it runs counter to your personal politics” Brie Larson is a racist, sexist rich white girl from hollywood who reduces minorities as a means to an end for her own political gain. Here’s a video explaining it — I’m not going to waste time trying it all: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQpTt8K1mno
“You are spending your free time inserting politics into a discussion without tying it to the movie” I am inserting politics into a discussion about a film review wherein the critics’s political biases are written *all over* the writeup.
“people often have strong negative emotional reactions when they encounter aspects of their own personalities that are suppressed, ignored, and/or undervalued” Are you projecting? It’s sounds like you’re projecting. “I will eat an albatross if Captain Marvel reviews DON”T GET NEGATIVE COMMENTS (the suppressed rage bubbles over) endlessly attacking the reviewers” Yup; you’re projecting.
I suggest you take your crap elsewhere. You’ll get no satisfaction here.
Man, you are going to be so mad when the reviews and box office figures for Captain Marvel come out.
Good.
Are you referring to the reviews from the 350 (max) critics? The only people who will pay to see that movie are those who care about Marvel’s continuity & SJWs; same goes for the people who will most likely be able to find some enjoyment in the film.
You’re right. The people who will see this movie are those who will probably find some enjoyment in it. Truly you have a dizzying intellect.
Also: we all know you’re going to watch it.
Just be quiet. The world dosen’t revolve around you and your tired anti-feminist views, or anything that threatens your little fragile masculinity—like women critiquing anything about men obviously does to you.
Just FYI, both “Fred Nielsen” and “Sabretruthtiger” were banned by MAJ a while ago, so they won’t be replying to your comments.
Don’t worry: He’ll only abuse the women critics who praise the film, not the men.
Disagreeing with someone’s politics (which have been ingrained in the individual’s writing) is not abuse. Also, I’ve gotten into arguments with men about this film as well so I hope you don’t feel too special.
This Alita-hating charade REALLY is a far-leftist thing, isn’t it? You’re the one who wrote in her review “looks so much like James Cameron that at first I thought it was James Cameron gave me the icky creeps. Why is Cameron inserting himself into a story about chasing a big-eyed teenage girl around?” A male filmmaker gets a movie made about a character he’s loved for many years and you slander him like that?
What if someone wrote an article about how you were a creep for writing things like this about a much younger man? https://www.flickfilosopher.com/2012/06/female-gazing-at-jamie-bell.html
But OF COURSE: it’s only okay when women do it. And now we’re off-topic, all because of you.
You’re now banned. Adios.
Oh, boy–if people don’t like the film, it has nothing to do with a “leftist” thing, it just means they found the film lacking in some way. You’re trying to project a political slant on people’s opinions of the film that simply isn’t there, except in your anti-feminist mind. Some people here said they didn’t like the film, and they explained very well all the reasons why. So get over yourself, get off your soapbox, and just accept that, instead of trying to make this some “evil liberal vs. good conservative” BS nonsense. If that’s all you got to fall back on for an argument, that’s pretty pathetic.
i always love how these guys have endless run-on sentences trying to list every single insult and objection all at once, in case someone might not figure out from just one where their sympathies (ha!) lie… however one gets tired before the end of the sentence and therefore cannot be bothered to read the whole paragraph to find out what — if any — point the commenter is trying to make. if he can even remember.
Dude: All critics are biased. Even the ones you think aren’t. Go find one whose biases align with yours and enjoy your cultural cocoon.
Dude? So that’s how you want to go.
Look, woman (watch this comment immediately get deleted for “hate speech”): Cultural cocoon,eh? I’m not the one who wrote a laughable 0-star review of a harmless PG-13 flick with one of my points being *her body isn’t real enough*. First of all, she’s a BATTLE ROBOT; her body was made to be efficient for battle — you arguing that she being heavy is unrealistic because of how tiny she is is invalid. It’s a sci-fi film (set in the year 2500++); thus, the metal alloy used to make her body is one that has yet to be invented — even so; YOU CAN’T NOT SAY that it is implausible because it sci-***FI***.
“Why is Cameron inserting himself into a story about chasing a big-eyed teenage girl around?” He isn’t; that’s how the Big Baddie looks like in the manga. But of course, your agenda requires you to frame all male filmmakers as creeps and rapists so you can push your *more womehhn less men* crap on everything — especially the film industry. Statistically speaking, women would much rather go into social work than the arts (for stability purposes).
“she’s not “offputtingly” muscular or even physically threatening until she leaps into action: she’s still slim and, with the help of those huge eyes, cute.” What, pray tell, is wrong with her slim body? You’re acting like she’s some large-busted fetish doll that resembles Lara Croft in those early Tomb Raider flicks. NOT ONCE is she sexualized in the film, and she is never framed as someone mute and submissive; she *is* a strong woman who is her own person and who reinstates this multiple times throughout the flim. She’s not a bulky tank because for fighting purposes and mobility, tanks cannot move about as quick.
I wrote nothing of the kind. But if you are unable to appreciate how fantasy and SF are used to reinforce contemporary status quos, I’m not gonna be the one to teach you about it.
Citations needed.
Your SF argument is incoherent. You say it’s not implausible if she’s tiny and heavy (a complaint MaryAnn never made) because futuristic alloys would make it possible; but you ALSO say it would be implausible if she were built like a tank, because she needs to be agile. So what happened to that futuristic alloy? Wouldn’t it also allow bulky tanks to have agility and speed? What happened to “you can’t say it’s implausible because it’s sci-fi”?
Alita looks the way she does because male writers in the real world decided that’s how she should look.
Oh yes she is. https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/alita-battle-angel-movie-review-rosa-salazar
“Your SF argument is incoherent.” Your SF argument is incoherent.
“So what happened to that futuristic alloy?” The metal may be lightweight, but the breadth of the body still makes the tank susceptible to hits from offenders.
“What happened to “you can’t say it’s implausible because it’s sci-fi” It is believable precisely BECAUSE IT IS SCI-FI.
“Alita looks the way she does because male writers in the real world decided that’s how she should look.” Wow. This website breeds man-haters. In other news; this movie was co-written by a woman; nice try, though.
And with regard to that asinine article you lined to this thread: “there’s also an unsettling sexualization of Alita throughout the film, from the way the camera pans up her teenage cyborg body, to a truly ridiculous moment where she grows large breasts”. The critic attached a photo of Alita’s new and configured cyborg body to the review. Tell me; do you see LARGE BREASTS? Not once does the camera crawl up her body or linger over her breasts throughout the film. She has the body of a 13-year-old girl; if this is the kind of thing you find sexual then excuse me while I continue cringing at you.
If SF makes things believable, then a bulkier body made of FutureAlloy(tm) that can still be agile and avoid hits (or absorb them better) can also be believable.
And the other co-writer is a man, who also happens to be the producer, and the project is clearly led by the vision of the male director and male producer, based on the source material by a male creator. I’m not saying men are automatically bad at telling women’s stories; but if the perspective in the room is overwhelmingly male, it makes it harder for male blind spots to be detected and challenged.
Now I’m not sure you saw the film.
“that can still be agile and avoid hits (or absorb them better) can also be believable” Finally you’re getting the point. Now tell me what’s wrong with Alita’s body? At this point anything you say against it will just be based on personal preferences as to what a body SHOULD look like in your eyes.
“if the perspective in the room is overwhelmingly male, it makes it harder for male blind spots to be detected and challenged.” And if the perspective in the room is overwhelmingly female, that doesn’t ensure that the film’s leading lady will be written well.
https://www.flickfilosopher.com/2011/11/sleeping-beauty-review.html
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/i_feel_pretty_2018
“Now I’m not sure you saw the film.” Perhaps the only camera leering up her adolescent body were your own eyes.
The point was your selective and inconsistent use of “it’s plausible because of SF.” You brought up “she can be both tiny and heavy” and said SF makes it okay. But you also said she can’t have a tank body because a tank can’t be agile (i.e., SF doesn’t make it okay). And NO ONE was complaining about or even mentioning these concepts before you did. So you’re introducing your own conflicting points and arguing with yourself. It’s quite entertaining, actually.
True. But previously, you were using “the co-writer is a woman” to argue that the film can’t possibly be sexist. So, again, you’re being incoherent and moving goalposts here. And you’re admitting that Alita’s female co-writer doesn’t guarantee that Alita isn’t poorly written. Thanks for proving my point.
Nope, it’s the camera.
EDIT: Oh, I see you’ve been banned. Bye bye.
How do you know women would rather go into social work than the arts? Where’s your proof—stats, links, all that? Of course, being a man, you just automatically know what women are suited for, even though you probably haven’t asked a single woman in IRL about the subject? Get real.
They “know” because then they don’t have to think about all the injustice and bigotry in the world, and they don’t have to worry about the reality that they are being unfairly protected from competition that would kick their asses.
As someone else said here, you’ve been posting a lot of replies to commenters who have been banned. If it makes you feel better to go off at them, that’s fine. But I do not consider this site Feminism in Pop Culture 101, and you should not feel the need — again, unless you really want to — to educate these cretins.
This is a feminist website, and it’s Women’s History Month, so heck yeah, issues from a feminist P.O.V.will be discussed here. If you can’t stand that (which you obviously can’t) take your stupid anti-feminist views to another site and whine and complain about them there. “Fake news CNN crowd”—of course, you just outed yourself as another fool who would rather believe in tired right-wing BS talking points than actually think for yourself. It’s so much easier to have someone else do your thinking for you, isn’t it?
Given the fact that the message of this movie isn’t exactly “Yay, large corporations! You rock! Bring on that Brazilification!”, this is a rather odd argument.
Born sexy yesterday? There is some amnesia involved, but the character Alita remembers being an adult soldier. And knows exactly what she is doing in a room full of killers (including herself). And as far as sexy? I hope it’s alright to say that I, as someone attracted to women, was not turned on by anything in the film, I also watched with my parents and never turned red because something seemed creepy or inappropriate. Maybe i’m missing something? Or I just lack robot fetish? Or I might be biased because I read the manga so long ago. Also I think its a bit much to insinuate that, because a character in the show has amnesia, and one of the actors looks like James Cameron, he must be showing repressed pedophilia tendencies or something? That last bit is a bit of a straw man but still.
Alita doesn’t remember *anything* for a quite a long ways into the film. In the meantime, she latches onto literally the first cute young man she lays eyes on, who tutors her in the ways of the world. She is absolutely an example of Born Sexy Yesterday.
Not, she doesn’t *know.* She reacts on instinct and/or programming. Not at all the same thing.
Well, then, I stand utterly corrected.
Yeah, well, I insinuated it.
Well, I had not ever heard of the trope, “born sexy yesterday” so maybe I reacted too quickly. And in support of your reaction, I did feel the “romance” was a bit odd when I watched that Bruice Willis film, and the recent tron movie that are shown in the link you provided to explain born sexy yesterday. One reason I have only seen each, once. and There probably are people who get some kinda of, wish fulfillment out of the idea of a naive/attractive person. Anyhow since I’m new to the idea, I certainly have not formed an opinion on if such fantasy is harmful. Hopefully most people attracted to the idea realize that it cannot really happen in real life.
However, I think this example should at least get points for making the boyfriend a jerk who rips body parts off people, and then gets killed before their relationship goes beyond a kiss. Further, if I remember right, he was even less of a sympathetic character in the comics.
Yes. There are men who like pliable, dependent womanchildren who cling to them.
Nope.
That Alita’s amnesia has a dark reason behind it. So that she can be a pliable, dependent character who exists mostly on programming. This idea or set of ideas seem to come from a very different worldview than mine, I did seek an opinion different from mine on purpose. Also for whatever reason, got defensive, feeling the discomfort of being exposed to ideas that contradict ones own.
I still won’t direct hatred or anger at people I don’t know, and I cannot read minds, what fantasies each gender might be prone to, or taught, I don’t know. And the lines for deciding when fantasies should be considered “sin” or wrong, I am no judge.
Indeed, to me Battle Angel Alita remains a good movie. If forced to give specifics, I think the doctor is a sympathetic role, and the movie made it easy to root for him and the titular character.
There were some idea’s unfamiliar to me here. and MaryAnn Johanson, I do feel like I have wasted a bit of your time. Sorry. hopefully you find more interesting posts and discussions in the future. That should be enough from me. (and perhaps more than enough) It would be right for you to have the last word? But as you will.
You’re not deep. The “Born Sexy Yesterday” thing goes for both sexes. You lot just choose to only make a big issue of it when the main hero is a woman, because you need to have something to support your claim that the world hates women. It’s done so the story can fit in 2ish hr window without having the movie revolve around the person finding a romantic interest.
Give us a dozen examples of male characters who are Born Sexy Yesterday, please.
LOL. My claim. You’re hilarious.
Why the fuck does a movie about a robot warrior need a romantic interest?
My dude, the move does revolve around Alita finding a romantic interest.
I used to really love the manga as a teen, and I remember being psyched for this movie years ago. I used to think the manga was so philosophical and deep and feminist. Then I reread it recently… aaaand it just doesn’t hold up. Unfortunately. For the exact same reasons MaryAnn covers in her review. So it sounds like they did follow the manga for this film.
And beyond the shallow surface-feminism, it’s not as “deep” as I used to think it was. Being edgy, gritty, dark and violent doesn’t necessarily make it “deep” or “mature”.
I still have some nostalgia for it and will probably see the movie eventually (cyberpunk is COOL and those cyborg designs look awesome, dangit) but I won’t be expecting a great movie.
I’m checking out the manga for the first time, and you’re right about the story not being as deep or feminist as it thinks it is. (In some ways it’s worse than the film: I think Ido’s paternalism is creepier and grosser, at least in the Motorball arc. And there’s some blatant male-gazey ogling of another, much younger – ! – female character.) But the artwork — especially for the fights and Motorball scenes — is still dynamic and cool, and for some reason I find that it makes the story more tolerable, in a way that the CGI onscreen doesn’t.
I do think the film mashes up some Cool Moments from the manga, but takes the context and motivations surrounding those moments and changes them for the worse. For instance (mild spoiler) Alita literally taking out her heart is a striking image that the film uses; in the manga, it’s a show of her foolhardiness and fierceness, as she offers it as a wager in a bonkers arm-wrestling match. Her reasons in the film are much more groaningly predictable.
I met someone last week. I didn’t know what to make of them at first, but after meeting them twice more, and having enjoyed their company more each time, I now think we’re going to be lifelong friends. Their name was Alita.
So I thought it’d be nice to make a comment here defending the film that doesn’t insult MaryAnn or come off as a bizarre anti-SJW screed. All I can go with is my honest reaction, and I honestly love this movie. I’ve been madly trying to articulate more thoroughly the many ways it’s grabbed hold of me, but haven’t yet made it work. In lieu of that, here are two positive views by others that have greatly informed my still-evolving responses:
Performance and Selfhood in Alita: Battle Angel
Review: Far From Heaven—Robert Rodriguez’s “Alita: Battle Angel”
Thanks for those links — they really gave me food for thought. I’m not entirely sure that those interpretations were all intended by the filmmakers (or by the original creator), but that doesn’t really matter, does it? What matters is how the viewer places the film in the context of their own experience and perspective. I’d love to read some thinkpieces by trans authors on how they see Alita in relation to their personal experiences.
I also look forward to your future evolved/evolving thoughts on the film, should you manage to articulate them and choose to share them. :-)
Thanks for the interest. If I knock together a more thorough review, I’ll let you know. It’ll be competing with my Honours thesis though, so no promises. :-) When I become obsessed with a film, writing about it sometimes becomes more difficult, instead of easier. Other times, it can seem easy. I wrote an 8,000 word review of The Last Jedi that just flowed out in a torrent, but my similar adoration of Alita is taking more time. I realise my gushing is in a minority here, and I’m trying to avoid going on the defensive. I find it’s always better to just write what I thought was good, instead of feeling like it’s necessary to respond to why others think it’s bad. If I can narrow it down to the most significant point, it’s that I think Alita herself is wonderful. I totally believe in her, have complete empathy for her and would follow her anywhere. She (and Rosa Salazar) is this movie, and I can’t overemphasise how much a charismatic performance can carry a film through. The film I saw was sincere about its world and its lead character. There’s no irony, and I loved that. I’ve never felt the slightest emotional response to any Marvel movie, but the third time I saw Alita, I cried, more than once. Go ahead and scoff, but that emotion is real. Even though I highly doubt any sequels will happen, I’ll take twenty Alita movies over Marvel/DC/Star Wars/Disney anything. This movie simply speaks to me in a way that those others don’t.
I’m pretty sure there will be a sequel. Lots and lots of people are feeling the way you do, including me, and are letting James Cameron and Roberto Rodriguez know. They are both very committed to the project. Hopefully the critiques give it a fairer share the second time around (assuming the movie is good), if it happens.
Stop assuming that critics who disagree with your take on the movie aren’t being “fair.”
That’s an interesting take; however, to echo MA’s comment in the review, 90% of the article could apply to Robocop (heck, 75% of it could apply to Frankenstein or any of a number of cheesy 60’s scifi drive-thru flicks), which has the additional benefits of skilled actors speaking recognizably human lines, competent scene transitions, a complete, well-constructed plot, and an appropriately gritty setting with interesting practical effects (ED-209 doesn’t hold up, but I suspect everything else will age far better than Alita). The issue of body dysphoria could even apply to something as bland as Avatar.
In theory, a gender-swapped Robocop for children could be great, but was this movie made so young people can see that learning to be confident and powerful in their own skin is moving, inspiring, and cool, or for adolescent men who think young-looking, ass-kicking, naive robot girls are fun to objectify? Every reviewer with tastes/values similar to mine has said the latter, the original manga and OVAs leaned toward the latter, but maybe it’s both in the film? I’ll find out when the movie shows up at the library in a couple weeks. I tend to like movies with something new happening underneath the hood, and the three writers involved have recently written dialogue that made my brain shrivel up and wander away.
Cameron and Rodriguez are fantastic at writing and directing action scenes and great with visual details – I’m worried about everything else. I love Aliens and The Abyss for the characters, the performances, and the spectacle – most of the dialogue is just there, flopping like a fish from one puddle of action to the next. When you suck out the novelty and smooth over the performances with effects, you get Avatar – extra spectacle with a heaping side of puppet strings, hold the humanity. Not to gaslight you, but I find movies are often like people, if you spend enough time with them, all the quirks that used to annoy you become comfortable and endearing. Although I’m clearly biased against it, I’m glad you love the movie – it is nice to hear some calm supporting voices offering new perspectives.
I’m glad some viewers are finding deep meaning in the film, but for me, I don’t see how the film earns those interpretations. It doesn’t really grapple with any of these intriguing ideas. It’s not *about* those ideas.
I do appreciate that. Thank you!
When Alita asks “Who’s body is this?” and “Does it bother you that I’m not fully human?”, neither read to me as existential questions, either in the way Cameron and Rodriguez presented them or in the way Rosa Salazar delivered the lines. The first came across as idol curiosity, a hint at a future upgrade, and an opportunity to get (still more) exposition from Ido. The second, honestly, sounded like she was inquiring as to Hugo’s sexual preferences.
Have you considered reading the manga?
After seeing the film I bought the original manga, those gorgeous large hardcover volumes. Eager to start reading it, but have umpteen books to read for uni this year, and they have priority.
I guess–aside from all the problems MaryAnn already pointed out–my biggest problems are: 1) WHY does a warrior cyborg have to have any real human emotions at all? In the context of needing to be a good fighting machine, what exactly would be the point of having a cyborg that can cry or love, etc? Like a gun, the entire point of those machines is to kill, right? I know they have human brains for a purpose but I can’t see a human brain put in a cyborg body and trained to kill not being utterly deranged and psychotic. 2) Mecha sex…not into it. No more cyborgs/robots that can or want to have sex (see 1 above: like, what is the POINT of it?), as they’re usually female and we already have Real Dolls in real life. Ick. *shudders*. 3)Ridiculously bad dialogue. “We don’t go up there. It isn’t allowed.” For real, though, Ido knows Alita is a 300+ year old piece of extremely advanced technology and has assuredly seen a thing or two, but he keeps treating her like an idiot child? Gross. And finally: 4) Worst of all, I didn’t care about these characters. At all. Or the whole sky city thing. Whatevs. Who cares? Why does anyone want to go there? The whole sky city v ground city reminds me of the theory that The Jetsons and The Flintstones take place in the same world and that The Jetsons are the a-hole elites living nice futuristic lives while the the Flintstones represent the poor, who have literally been knocked back into the Stone Age.
I’ll take a shot at these, but major Spoiler Alert for the Manga (I’m going to pretend Last Order doesn’t exist because it’s horrible). I don’t know how much of this applies to the film as I haven’t seen it yet:
SPOILER ALERT
1) Narratively, Alita has amnesia that has reset her brain to a childlike state due to the damage done to her body during test combat. It’s implied that she’s a prototype of sorts, and eventually we meet intact advanced versions that are as utterly deranged and psychotic as you would expect. As Alita regains her memories and skills, she becomes more mature and colder, with less crying and more outbursts of rage, although she still views Ido as her father.
However, beyond the narrative justification, the fundamental reason Alita has emotions is because she was designed to behave like a young girl due to the Japanese fetish for moe-ish characters who are innocent and approachable (it’s related to the born sexy yesterday trope that MA mentioned). Sexualizing children and infantilizing physically powerful female characters is a symptom of a society’s underlying fear of women. It’s creepy and weird, and it’s spreading. I should mention that moe characters are also popular with many women who are attracted to their cute, childlike appearance, so it’s a lazy character design trope that appeals to a large portion of increasingly adolescent-minded consumers.
One of the strengths of the manga is Alita’s struggle to learn more about herself in world where everyone she meets tries to force her into a limited definition that fits neatly into their worldview. The two older male scientists see her as a child, and represent Kishiro’s internal struggle with his desire to keep Alita’s personality “cute” and nonthreatening while also allowing her to gain independence and depth.
One of the weaknesses of the story is that the author views the strength and skills that the military body gives Alita as “alien” and not essential to who she is. She can’t simply maintain her complex humanity within a powerful new body, but must eventually find a way to be reborn fully human to rediscover her true identity as an innocent, carefree girl who, coincidentally, will also become sexually available. This undermines most of the conflicts and themes in the bulk of the manga, and directly contradicts any positive messages dealing with body dysmorphia.
2) Mecha sex removes the threat and unpredictability of human emotion and desire from the experience. It is pure objectification that exists solely to satisfy a physical need. For people with low emotional intelligence who are socially awkward, robot sex represents the lazy solution – there’s no need to think about the needs and thoughts of another person, it will all be handled automatically. There’s no need to put in the effort to maintain your own appearance and physical health or improve your social standing or personality when anyone can purchase any body they like. It’s a symptom of a society that fears genuine human intimacy and vulnerability. On a more practical note, sometimes people just get horny and they want a convenient quickie without any strings, and also of course mechanical vibrating devices are already fetishized by many people.
3) James Cameron, Robert Rodriguez, and Laeta Kalogridis. Read any script they’re written and you’ll see it’s par for the course. Also, movies are now produced with foreign box office in mind. This typically means ironing out and dumbing down any subtlety in the story and character designs and piling on the special effects, racial stereotypes, and traditional gender roles to give the film “universal appeal.” Not to say that Americans don’t also appreciate brainless action flicks, but compare the foreign box office of movies like Black Panther, Wonder Woman or The Lego Movie to Aquaman or Ready Player One.
When most filmgoers in other countries watch an American blockbuster, they don’t want any rough cultural edges slowing down the carnival ride (one great positive example is Coco, whose message about the importance of family and honoring ancestors dovetailed perfectly with similar Chinese cultural values). It’s similar to the reason most casual movie fans in America won’t watch a subtitled movie – for a lot of people, entertainment means turning off their brains and relaxing while the movie does all the mental heavy lifting. They don’t view the mental effort required to wrap their brains around other cultures and values as fun.
4) This is a growing problem. I suspect it’s because attention spans are shrinking and the pace of entertainment has become so accelerated. People communicate in truncated, discontinuous viral tropes. “Oh, this man and woman are staring into each other’s eyes in front of a sunset, they are so incredibly in love.” “Oh, this solder’s father is dying in front of him while sad music plays, this is so tragic and moving.” There’s no time for context, smooth transitions, or unifying thematic threads anymore (this connects to the mecha-sex issue above), only a quick sketch of a pop culture trope and maybe a humorous subversion for a punchline before we’re on to the next. People are increasingly isolated and insulated from any intimate, complicated relationships – how many times have you seen a couple in a restaurant or on a subway not talking to each other or even their children, intently staring at their phones?
The period of time we’re in is analogous to the 1920’s – a giddy euphoria over new technologies, a faster pace of life, surface level materialism, quick thrills on demand – but underneath it all a growing instability and emotional vacuum with rapidly increasing class polarization. In that sense, a city of out of touch elites floating in the sky and sucking all the resources out of the land while the poor struggle to survive on scraps and amuse themselves by watching professional sports and killing each other for parts is an apt metaphor – it’s a shame Cameron, Rodriguez, and Kalogridis (and Kishiro, to be fair) seem to like Alita more for the kick-ass violence than the social critique. The financial powers that be would love for us to stay like this forever, filling our never-ending voids with endless, empty consumption, spectating simulated violence. Hopefully, it won’t take another Depression to snap us out this time around.
“One of the weaknesses of the story is that the author views the strength and skills that the military body gives Alita as “alien” and not essential to who she is. She can’t simply maintain her complex humanity within a powerful new body, but must eventually find a way to be reborn fully human to rediscover her true identity as an innocent, carefree girl.”
I don’t think I can agree with that sentiment, The way I see it, The author has constantly went out of his way to demonstrate that the Power and strength Alita posseses is linked inherently to her training and skills , it’s esentially her that’s behind the strength rather than the high tech cyborg body that empowers her. Throughout the series She kicked ass regardless of the body she had, because it was never about the body it was about her. In the begining she was given an OP military combat body, which she loses during the story line only for it to fall in the hands of the completely deranged Zapan, and she fights against Zapan in a completely overpowered cyborg body while using a standard civilian one yet still manages to defeat him. Proving her resourcfulness and skill even without a high tech OP body.
The way I see it, it was completely necessary for her to lose the OP Breserker armour, otherwise it would’ve gotten in the way of her growth as a character and the series would degenerate into some sort of shonen bullshit with increasingly ridiculous power scaling (which ironically it did in Last Order, where everything that was good about the series got thrown out of the window in favor of turning the story into DBZ except it’s Cyborgs) as 4 the Pinocchio ending, which was rushed both in the original and the Last Order. after all the bullshit Alita goes through during the series, especially being used as a literal tool and weapon by Typhares for over 10 years, I think she pretty much deserved a second chance at having a normal life with a person she deeply cares about . and I really don’t see why her becoming sexually available is a problem either, I mean I’m pretty sure women like to have sex too…
That’s a good defense of the character – she can be viewed as a sort of Panzer Kunst Pinocchio. It’s not clear to what extent her skills are built/downloaded into her brain automatically as opposed to being a result of her own human effort, but your perspective makes sense. Thank you for the thoughtful response.
I still wish the manga was a little more about Alita’s internal struggles and less over the top violence and explosions (although I do like that too in moderation), and I still think this movie and the OVAs fail even more miserably than the manga when it comes to character development, intelligent themes, and world building, but I respect that some are able to see and appreciate what I cannot.
I suspect — fear — that these are “secrets” being held in reserve to be revealed in the third film of the trilogy. :-/
Oh, totally. They clearly want this to be a series. You don’t stick Edward Norton at the end of a movie without wanting to use him for sequels. However, I’m not sure the movie made enough money to justify sequels. If there are sequels, I’m sure my husband will go watch them. He’s read the manga, so he was telling me that yeah, there are reasons why she does what she does and why cyborgs have emotions. I just don’t care enough to find out more.
WHY does a warrior cyborg have to have any real human emotions at all?
Umm…. You do understand that Cyborgs are supposed to be legit human beigns, they just happen to be humans with a mechanical body rather than a biological one, they are people not machines….
So the thing about this movie is that it did an absolute shit job of navigating the very legit cyberpunk/posthuman question of what it means to be human, and how much organic meat you can take away before an individual no longer “counts” as human. That’s a big part of why this movie is Very Bad.
It totally sucks, and is a huge indictment of Hollywood’s attempts to tell sci-fi stories, that *Star Trek: The Next Generation* did this better a generation ago with Data. *Nothing* onscreen — either small screen or big — has come close to what TNG (and Brent Spiner, god) did with Data. Hollywood should be ashamed.
I don’t think Hollywood really belives in the notion of shame, after all, at the very top the business like any other is runned by a bunch of executive types in suits who seem to be completely divorced of any notion of art or common sense for that matter, they seem to be running on corporate greed, which is why we mostly keep getting rehashes after rehashes and constant reboots and returns to old formulas that worked, or they get based on some priviously sucessful books or comics. The Problem with Hollywood is the same one that plagues the music industry,and that is that both are currently run by people who are affraid to take risk and would rather stick to formulas and alghoritms that have already worked. As for Alita battle Angel, I wouldn’t necessarily Say that it’s “VERY” bad, even though upon seeing it in theater I felt pretty insulted as someone who’s been a fan for over 15 years, I feel a lot of the deeper and grittier stuff from the source material was either removed or completely changed to fit Camerons new vision.
But, despite the fact that I disagree with Camerons interpretation of the source material, and feel that Robert Rodriguez was all over the place with his direction. I still don’t think that it’s quite fair to say that the movie was very bad simply on the grounds that it was stupid. Because I don’t think it’s fair to judge a movie based on what it was never intended to be. If Cameron wanted to make a smart movie, he wouldn’t have brought the guy who made Spy Kids 2 on board as a director. The way I see it, Cameron wanted to make a movie that was stupid, action packed and had cool cyborgs, big robots and stunning visuals. he never intended to make a dystopian movie pondering the deep philosophical questions of what it means to be human, and because of it I don’t think it’s really fair from us to judge it for failing to be smart and philosophical. Simply put, neither you as a critic nor me as a long time fan were really the intended audience. But judging it for what it is I’d still say the movie was pretty mediocre except for the action scenes which I say were pretty damn creative and fun to watch.
I haven’t called the movie “stupid,” but if that’s what it is intended to be, what would be wrong with calling it stupid?
I’m not saying it’s wrong to call it stupid, I’m just saying that it’s kind of wrong to judge a movie for failing to be deep and philosophical when it never intended to come of as deep and philosophical, we can both lament a the the lost opportunity of Cameron not exploring the themes of transhumanist indentity and what it mean to be human, but I doubt it was ever his intention to do so. If Cameron presented the movie as a deep exploration of such themes but failed to do so, that would be valid criticism, but it seem to me like he was just in to make a stupid movie action movie with cyborgs becase he thinks cyborgs look cool, LOL.
And I don’t think a movie being stupid is is necessarily a bad thing. Pacific Rim is one of the dumbest movies I’ve ever watched But I love that movie to death, because that movie is so proud of being stupid and over the top that I just can’t help but enjoy it from start to finish, it just speaks to my inner 10 year old kid. So that movie in my opinion is an example of a Good, well directed, and well filmed stupid movie.
on the other end there is Batman v Superman. Which is an example of a terrible, incredibly stupid movie. Now, why would in this particular case being stupid be a bad thing? Well it’s because unlike Pacific rim which is an intentionally stupid over the top action flick,
BvS constantly tries to appear much smarter than it actually is, and because of it comes of as pretentious , disingenuous and insulting.
And between those 2, I think that Alita battle Angel leans a lot more towards the intentional stupidity of Pacific Rim than the pretentiousness of BvS. But don’t get me wrong, I still think think it was a pretty bad movie regardless, because Robert Rodriguez is the kind of director that best works making crime movies with gangsters and over the top manly man protagonists, So I honetsly don’t know what drugs was Cameron doing when he thought: “Yeah, this is the perfect guy to direct my sci-fi themed action movie with a coming of age story featuring a girl. ” If Cameron decided to stay true to the more grittier aspects of the source material, meybe it would’ve actually work, but as it is, the movie was bound to be disjointed and half baked the moment Rodriguez came on board, because he just isn’t the appropriate director for this kind of movie.
Yeah, but in Atomic Blonde, Charlize Theron asn’t playing some over-the-top cyborg uperhero with powers—she was playing a realistic undercover spy who needed to use martial arts to protect herself (she also actually underwent several months of martial-arts training for the film, and it definitely shows–the fight scenes are some of the best I’ve seen in a film in a long time—very HK-movie influenced, and actually pretty realistic,too.) Yeah, I liked the film, lol.
Seriously? As if only women get insecure and jealous of each other about anything. Men get just as insecure and jealous when they see a guy who rivals them in good looks, youth, and being in good shape—they just won’t admit it because the stereotype is that only women do that, which isn’t true. I haven’t seen Alita yet, but, honestly, that computer animation of her face is truly disturbing in its unreality for some reason—I really didn’t like it when I saw it in the trailer.
The review of the film wasn’t about the character’s being attractive—it was about how the “kick-ass babe” trope is being used in it, instead of the main character being developed any further than that trope itself. And, yeah, women have every right to critique any stupid stereotypes of women in film because we see them all the damn time. Calling anybody who points this out “SJWs and white knights” is pretty shortsighted and stupid, because you just basically ignored the issues these tropes and stereotypes being up simply because it’s not important to you because you’re a man. Just say that, and don’t use that “SJW” nonsense.
That whole “SJW” thing was started and made a big deal of a couple of years ago by right-wingers who just wanted to discredit anyone online calling attention to social justice issues online. I’ve never even heard anyone use that phrase IRL, and I’ve known plenty of social activists IRL too.
Oh,please—-I’ve seen many a blockbuster and action films which I both liked and criticized at the same time. You can actually do both, you know.
I call bullshit on your calling Alita shallow. She is no more shallow than Rey, who to be fair she is very similar to. Let’s see, Alita and Rey are: suddenly good at fighting despite no training, naive before becoming tougher, and cute and feminine despite being warriors. You can’t just trash one heroine while loving one who is exactly the same just because you didn’t like one’s movie as much as the other. I look forward to the Alita sequel and I’m sorry you won’t be.
Not exactly the same. Nowhere near the same. But thanks for playing!
Strongly disagree. Firstly this is one of the most emotionally powerful films and most emotionally expressive main characters ever created. From the film itself and interviews it’s clear everyone involved really really gave a shit about making this the best film they could. Right from the waking up scene we see Alita express an innate joy and curiosity at the world and the body she wakes up in. We see these same traits emerge (unprompted) again with her reactions to eating a (peeled) orange for the first time, seeing Zalem and Iron City, meeting the little dog, seeing motorball, learning about the hunter-warriors, and exploring the URM ship.
We also see Alita (again unprompted) show an innate desire to protect those weaker than her and to stand up to gratuitous cruelty and violence (“I do not stand by in the presence of evil”), first saving the dog from being stomped by a centurion, then charging at a gang of thugs despite being told to “RUN” (the “AWAY” was clearly implied), and actively intervening to stop various antagonists.
Ido does try to control Alita in various ways, but significantly these attempts FAIL COMPLETELY (“I’m just tired of it; he just wants me to be his perfect little girl.”). The relationship between Alita and Ido only begins to recover once Ido learns to respect Alita as an independent rational agent (Hugo does this from the start, though he does have other moral failings which I wont spoil).
The emotional impact of the film really hinges on the performance of the extraordinarily talented, passionate, charismatic, and, for what it’s worth, Latina lead actress Rosa Salazar. While this might technically be my opinion, it is a pretty widespread one; everyone I’ve talked to in real life and the vast majority of people I’ve talked to online who had seen this movie liked it, several independently noted Salazar’s acting as particularly praiseworthy. This film has also inspired one of the most passionate and tight nit fan bases I’ve ever seen; characterized by an intense love and appreciation for this character. Many of then, myself included, treat the character of Alita as an example to aspire to be more like. Again for what it’s worth I can tell you that a very large part of this fanbase is made up of women, ethnic minorities, or citizens of developing countries.
The fact that Alita is *visibly* not entirely human supports, rather than undermines, any point about what it means to be human. the point is that she is physically quite different from us, but can nevertheless embody all the best traits ourselves. (“That’s just a shell, it’s not bad or good, that part’s up to you.”)
Also at least in the early parts of the movie Alita isn’t sexy AT ALL she’s a kid! FUCKING EWW! Alita only begins to present as a woman, rather than a girl, later in the film, by which time she is quite competent and assertive.
And at this point I’m fairly optimistic about a sequel, Alita has made over $400,000,000 at the box office, ordinarily this would make a film wildly successful, however the fact that the budget was so large means it is only marginally profitable so far, however merchandising, Blu-rays, and streaming should make it comfortably profitable. It has consistently outperformed the expectations of critics, it has as mentioned before been well received by a solid majority of viewers, and has an intensely dedicated fanbase which I’m proud to call myself a member of, and who have been doing everything we can to make this franchise a success, and have zero intention of stopping now!
The author of this hit piece got something right. This movie is not SJW propaganda. She therefore does not like it, and that’s OK.But let’s be honest. Those views are from heavily filtered lenses, and not objective.
Neither is my love for this movie, which is a result of my deep, heart-felt connection with the character. I fell for Alita’s generosity, curiosity, sense of wonderment, and so many other lovable qualities. I was pained by the tragic arc of her destiny, in which she is unable to resist throwing herself into battle regardless of the odds, Seeing her body being shred to pieces brought tears to my eyes. It was a total roller coaster of emotions through and through. What better experience can you ask from a movie?
Contrarily to the author, I actually believe the movie was feminist. Alita is neither a puppet nor a Mary Sue. Her blank state does make her influenceable at first, but she gets past that (the born sexy yesterday criticism completely misses the mark), and the movie does not condone that anyway (Ido is unable to keep her sheltered and Hugo betrays her). Her greater curse is her warrior programming, to which she is initially oblivious, contrasting with her true nature, which is caring and loving. It’s tragic that she is not in control of that, but that does not make it less interesting.
She would be the first person to admit that. And she does. (Also: NO critic is objective.)
At least you’re being honest.
I don’t object to subjectivity. I object to the inability of the author to view past her blinders, and cast the movie (and its fans) under a malevolent light of sexism, patriarchy, and whatnot. For example, the “born sexy yesterday”, which IS a cringy theme, and which DOES plague some movies (e.g., The 5th Element), does not apply here. It’s very clear from the get-go that, while Alita does need help around being amnesiac and oblivious to the dangers of her surroundings, she quickly outgrows any advice she gets and does her own things. Admittedly, her drive is not of her complete agency, but that is not a problem. It introduces a conflict that is key to the story.
How convenient that the theme you admit is “cringy” someone doesn’t apply to the movie you like.
You have it backwards. I like the movie *because* it does not have these cringy themes.
Alita is smart and capable, and also amnesiac and unfamiliar with the world around her. As such, she is vulnerable and dependent on others. Her cuteness certainly attracts attention too, adding to her vulnerability. But first, even if they try to protect her, neither Ido not Hugo try to take “advantage” of her, at least not in sexist fashion. Ido’s love is paternal. It may be wrong and hurtful by smothering her, but it’s not sexist. Neither is Hugo’s interest. He loves her for sure, but Zalem is the first thing he has in mind, before Alita. Second, Alita is self-driven. She quickly outgrows the advice she gets. She does not wait for permission to do anything she wants to, including foolish mistakes for which she pays a mighty price. Is that the real issue here, BTW? The fact that Alita is not all powerful, and that she does not win every fight? Worse perhaps, she needs to be saved sometimes? To me, remaining somewhat fragile makes her way more relatable, and also admirable.
You think that’s what I’m looking for in a movie about a woman? Cuz it isn’t. It is a phony strawman idea that feminism is about women as all-powerful and perfect.
You *are* starting to get close to understanding one of my problems with this movie, however. You — and the people who like this movie — want a female character who is both somehow kickass yet also fragile and “feminine.” You’re looking for a fantasy, not anything like a real woman. We’ve have enough fantasy women onscreen. I’m sick of them.
Because Captain Marvel (an SJW icon) is somehow supposed to portray a “real woman”? My turn to be astonished.
And why did you mark my other post as spam. It was a thoughtful reply to another poster, where I was even apologizing to you.
I’ve read many testimonies online and on social media from female fans saying that they recognize themselves, their strengths and flaws, and their experiences in Carol Danvers. And since your very first comment here admitted that all responses to film (including yours) are subjective, I’m sure you’ll acknowledge that these women’s perspectives are just as valid as yours.
But how predictable that a defense of Alita has turned into an unprompted attack on Captain Marvel. You rail against what you see as an agenda, but when you throw in a gratuitous “Captain Marvel sucks” argument and throw around the “SJW” pejorative, you’re pretty obviously revealing your own.
I think we can agree that neither Captain Marvel nor Alita represent “real women”. Both are projections of our fantasies. When this blog’s hostess wrote:
I had a chuckle. That’s all.
But some fantasies acknowledge the realities of women’s lives more than others.
Bluejay *just* told you that plenty real women see ourselves and our experiences in CM, and you’re denying that?
*I* don’t mark posts as spam. Disqus does. I’ve now approved your comment.
Yes, Captain Marvel is a real woman with superpowers. She’s hardly perfect. She’s human.
In before Dan can get super-literal and say “Ha ha, she’s not real, she’s a fictional character.”
Interesting you should say that, because nowhere in the review does MaryAnn mention anything about the film’s fans. Maybe it’s not healthy to self-identify so closely with a film; a critic who hates a movie you love does not necessarily think you’re a bad person for loving it.
I see you’re already aware of this commenter (whom you’ve upvoted) who is able to express her love for the film without taking the negative review personally or casting aspersions on the reviewer. It’s possible to share what one loves about a film without antagonizing those who disagree. More people should try it.
I agree with that. This other poster seemed very kind, and I’m sure more effective.
I remain astonished at the number of people who think that fighting for social justice is a bad thing.
How do you square using “SJW” as a pejorative with what you say speaks to you about this movie?
There is nothing wrong with social justice. It’s a good thing. Propaganda, on the other hand, is bad. I don’t want a movie to tell me what is the proper way to think, or worse, see that a movie is judged solely on that ability. Leaving aside the ethics of subverting art (or entertainment) to politics, propaganda makes everything feel wooden and stiff. It’s a kill joy. Alita Battle Angel was none of that. It was exciting and uplifting. It portrayed a likable young woman going through an incredible ordeal, and facing her challenges head on, with more grit and ferocity that any hero I have ever seen on screen. She was not doing it to save the world, or push an agenda, but it was inspiring nonetheless. If at the end of the day I am a little less inclined myself to stand by in the face of evil, then this movie will have done some good.
Astonishing that you don’t think there’s anything political about this movie, either overtly or in the subtext.
So I have to say, as I have said many many times before: If you don’t think a work of art (the critic discussing a work of art) is biased, it’s because you share its biases.
So basically you are saying that I am a sexist pig. Got it. I’ll counter by saying that you are a fanatic, with seemingly a lot of baggage that you are trying to unload.
While I agree that overt propaganda can sometimes be counterproductive and annoying, she never called you a sexist pig or even implied it. MA is not being any more fanatical than you are – you’re both stating your honest reactions.
As MA said, movies that fail to set off your SJW alarm still reinforce a particular worldview. Opinions and works of art that appear unbiased, “pure,” and free from any political agendas are merely supporting (or tacitly assuming) an agenda that you already accept.
Imagine a freshwater fish dumped into a saltwater tank yelling, “it’s painful to breathe!”, and a saltwater fish swimming up to say, “The water’s fantastic, and what’s this ‘salt’ stuff you keep whining about? Whatever it is, I’m sure the best way to get rid of it is to stop talking about it and just enjoy the swim!”
Not a perfect metaphor, but just saying, the salt is real (in more ways than one).
I try not to write anonymous comments in a way that’s different from the way I would speak directly to the person. I would not have said that to MA, so I apologize. I still find that, in the context of our discussion, her writing that…
…is condescending and obtuse.
But moving on… The question is not whether a work of art is biased. I’m not even sure “biased” is the right word here. Art obviously reflects the subjective reality of the artist, which may not be comfortable. It’s the role of the audience to be receptive, reflect, and accept or reject it. In this case, “Alita: Battle Angel” attempts to remain faithful to the source material (a Japanese manga), and is doing a good job. Not having read the manga myself (yet), I take from actual fans that the movie makes some concessions to accommodate the format, but the arc of the story is pretty much the same. So are the characters. I believe that to validly critique this movie, one needs to appreciate the cultural differences at play. My understanding is that Japanese culture is much more homogeneous and normative. Mangas are a form of escape, and characters reflect that. They are very emotional and expressive. Their heroes are more tortured and conflicted. The movie portrays that very well. It’s meant to make you fall in love with Alita, see through her eyes, feel her pain, and share her triumph.
Alita draws you in. She is very engaging. She is cute, but not in a sexually overt way. Her adult body, which you never forget is cybernetic, is shaped as that of an young, athletic woman. (Admittedly, she looks more like a gymnast than a truck driver. God forbid, she even have breasts!) Her human side is shown to be pure and giving. She wears her heart on her sleeve, and that leads to goofy moments, like when she literally offers her (artificial) heart to Hugo. I’ve read reviews howling at that scene, but it is meant to be awkward. Even Alita is embarrassed by the moment.
In wide contrast with that tenderness, Alita is also a warrior. We quickly find out that she is in fact a trained killer. Being amnesiac, her fighting skills flare up seemingly from nowhere. In combat, she is wild, vicious, and merciless.
Therein lies, I think, the tragedy of this heroine. She is not in control of herself. On the human side, she is too giving, and even too loyal (Hugo sort of betrays her, but she keeps loving him even though he clearly does not deserve her). On the warrior side, she is clearly a programmed killer, who does not even know anything about her purpose (was she on the “good” side of the war, or is she the enemy?). We, as the audience, are put squarely at the heart of this tragic conflict with deep mythological themes. I can accept that someone is not interested, or even objects to the perpetuation of this kind of narratives because he or she sees that as an obstacle to social progress. I and many other anti-SJW don’t agree with that, but if you believe it, by all means make your point anyway. But don’t unfairly trash the material and insult fans when you don’t understand what you are watching, and are not interested in learning about it.
Not what I said. At all.
We all have baggage, dude. That’s hardly an insult.
And all this time I thought X-23 of Logan fame had gotten a bad rap. Apparently she’s the belle of the PC ball compared to Alita.;-)
That said…
It’s interesting — and depressing — to see how far we’ve come from the days of “No Atomo, I Superman.” And indeed, we could use more movies like The Iron Giant nowadays. More so than this flick.
As recently as Logan, it seemed to be a bad thing to train a girl to be a combat warrior –especially against her wishes. Yet poor Alita is soon quick to embrace the idea that one can’t help but wonder what Buffy Summers and River Tam must be thinking. (Good thing they’re fictional characters.)
And yet despite all that, I found myself liking this flick for some odd reason or at least I liked it far more than MaryAnn did. Indeed, I remember finding Machete Kills — a film MaryAnn liked more than me — to be far more problematic.
Then again I hated Robocop. So I’m obviously evil…
My final tally for Alita: Seven times in the cinema. Tied with Mad Max Fury Road for the most number of times seeing a film in theatres (as an adult). I hope the fans of this movie have stopped insulting people who don’t like it, and realised that’s a shitty thing to do. I completely disagree with MaryAnn’s and other critics’ negative reviews, but there’s no possible point in personally attacking someone for liking or not liking a movie. And in other goddamn news, water is still goddamn wet!
I’m genuinely glad you enjoyed the movie so much.
They haven’t. And if the past is any guide, the hate will continue to come in regular waves as the movie is released on demand, then DVD, then Netflix, etc.
Thanks. It’s bloody frustrating seeing people behave terribly in the name of something I love. Just one more thing that keeps me from ever fully entering fandoms. I never quite fit. Boy, the reactions when I casually mention that Last Jedi is the best Star Wars movie….
So, the library finally got a copy, and this movie is surprisingly awful – not in the sense that I was surprised it was so bad, but in the sense of it being bad in surprising ways. There is a little male-gaziness going on, but it’s not nearly as egregious as it is in Rodriguez’s other films.
First, the obvious stuff – the writing is terrible, on the level of a tween’s first science fiction story with painfully forced info dumps everywhere. As the review states, Ido behaves somewhat like a human being – he never thaws out of his stereotypical overprotective father mold, but if you squint and listen just right, you can convince yourself that yeah, yeah, this is a reasonable approximation of a human being with thoughts and emotions that I recognize.
Every other character is flimsier than cardboard. As I feared, the film is slavishly accurate to the OVAs and crams in a trilogy’s worth of plot resulting in characters and events that just kind of pop up and vanish in a monotonous, disjointed sequence. I feel for anyone watching this movie with no prior knowledge of the manga. Who are Vector, Grewishika, Chiren, Koyomi, Tanji? You can sum up their characters in a couple words, and none of their stories have any emotional or thematic resonance with the rest of the film. In many cases, their little pieces of the runtime don’t even have a logical connection with the rest, stuff just happens because, hey it was in the OVA. Why does Zapan’s face get cut off? Why do they show Jashugan? Who’s Nova? Who’s that guy with the robot dogs? *Shrugs* They were in the OVAs.
I hate to be that guy, but if the story had followed the manga instead of the OVAs, the audience would have gotten to know the characters and been emotionally invested in the action. The manga Makaku (Grewishka in the film) arc reveals his motivations, setting him up as a foil for Alita and making him more horrifying as a villain. Here, he’s just another brainless thug. By cramming in the climax of the Hugo story during the Motorball race, neither feels as important or impactful. In the manga, the end of the Hugo arc is what drives Alita to compete seriously in Motorball as she slowly redefines herself and gains independence from Ido.
So the writing is awful, the plot is too much spread too thin, and the characters are nonexistent – none of this is surprising, Cameron’s characters are all flat stereotypes, and he’s never written anything good without loads of help. To be fair, the OVAs, his first exposure to the material, suffer from the same flaws. What’s shocking is how terrible the action and overall editing are. There are many moments when the camera begins to pull back into an epic wide shot as an orchestral swell builds in the background that end prematurely with an abrupt cut into a completely unrelated scene. The editing actively works to destroy any shred of emotion the shots start to generate – way too much time is spent on shots that should be short and sweet, and not nearly enough on shots that should be extended to build atmosphere, flesh out the world, and generate a sense of awe or pathos. If you told me it was written and edited by an experimental AI or transcribed from a dream, I wouldn’t be surprised.
Even the fights are somehow less interesting than the fights in the OVAs with short, quick cuts, frequent closeups and an inconsistent sense of geography and spacing. The only scene in which this editing style works in the movie’s favor is the motorball race, as the action there is meant to be frenetic and fleeting. That sequence is entertaining in the same way as the Pod Racing scene in Episode One or a modern Final Fantasy cutscene, a sort of “Well, I don’t give a shit about any of these characters, and I don’t care what happens, but this is kind of a cool roller coaster ride, and it’s a welcome break from whatever the hell the rest of this mess is trying and failing to do.”
Other than the motor ball race, the second Grewishka fight comes closest to capturing the grace of the manga and OVAs, but the rest of the action is just not interesting. They somehow even made Ido’s rocket hammer look lame and unimpressive. I was certain John Wick 3 had the worst writing and action I was going to see all year, but this is worse. I guess people who really love the OVAs and people who like to watch robotic teenage girls fight other robots that they don’t know anything about in poorly choreographed and horribly shot and edited video game cutscenes with obvious outcomes could love this. Oh, and people who are immune to bad writing – if you can read an entire page of Twilight without snickering once, you have a chance with this one. I figured at least Rodgriguez and Cameron would get the action right, it’s what they’re good at – no such luck, it’s a love story written for four year olds with the poorly animated, senseless violence of Mortal Kombat in a PG 13 package. I’ve never seen such a confused tangle of tropes, and I’ve watched both John Carter and Valerian (haven’t seen Jupiter Ascending yet though).
SPOILER ALERT
This is a more minor gripe in light of all the other issues, but lets examine the black characters in this little gem:
A nurse who has almost lines and nothing to do.
A violent gang member who belittles Alita because he is anti-cyborg, gets dunked on, then gets chopped in half
A motorball racer who races by getting down on all fours and collides with an obstacle in a fiery explosion
The leader of a criminal cartel who lies to two main characters, one of whom he has sex with then murders and dismembers so he can harvest her organs, who is occasionally enslaved by the white mastermind running the show whenever an important info dump needs to happen, and who is ultimately murdered by Alita who triumphantly shouts, “one less slave” to said white mastermind.
The movie also doesn’t cast Asians in any important roles (the nice girl at the pickup roller basketball game is the only one I remember) despite going out of its way to state what a huge melting pot the city is. It admirably casts a Latinx actress in the main role, then covers her performance up with CG that completely obscures her race. (Btw, none of the other inhabitants of the city have enormous anime eyes, but no one in town gives her a second glance or even mentions her nifty eye job)
Taken on their own, none of these details is enough to sink a film, although wasting Mahershala Ali (and many others) is criminal, but considered as a whole and as part of a larger pattern in Hollywood, they don’t paint a pretty picture. If any movie deserved to flop, it’s this one.
END SPOILER
The Latina* actress’s race wasn’t that obscure to me — but then I’m biast.
Then again I did not recognize the female Hispanic character in Big Hero 6 as a Hispanic character until after I read MaryAnn’s review of that film so it’s not like I have a sixth sense about these things. (And I grew up with a blue-eyed blonde sister who, like myself, was half-Mexican.)
As for the rest of the movie, I can think of numerous sci-fi movies that were much better but then again I can think of many that were much worse. (Some of them even being movies recommended by MaryAnn.)
Yes, it does suck that other races are underrepresented in this flick. It also sucks that Latin types are usually underrepresented in other movies as well. Divide et impera, people. Or to put it another way, Hollywood’s idea of diversity is all too often “let’s you and him fight.”
* I prefer not to use the word Latinx because as well-meaning as it is undoubtedly meant to be, I still think it’s silly. But then for many years, my father had to deal with would-be employers who did their damnedest to try to make him deny he was Mexican so I’d like to think I have the right to be wary of any word — no matter how PC — that appears to endorse that type of thinking.
The “found on the trash pile” bit made me think of Kurt Russell’s “Todd 3465” character in “Soldier” – even though he was an enhanced human, not a cyborg or android.
“..Alita — as Ido dubs the amnesiac girl after he’s taken her back to his
cybernetics lab and given her the spare robot body he happened to have,
because of Reasons, just lying around ..”
It’s explained that the first body Ido gives Alita was meant for Ido and Chiren’s disabled daughter Alita who was killed by a psychotic android who had been a patient of Ido’s related to his association with the Motorball games.
It’s revealed that she was formerly a cyborg warrior, I don’t see that it’s ever explained why they made the cyborg female. Looking at a bit of previous lore related to this character, apparently there are varying backstories as to how she came to be. The movie doesn’t doesn’t go into detail at all.
this is the totality of Alita as a character: she is nothing but a robot warrior
Well first, she’s a cyborg, not strictly a robot. And she goes through too much personal exploration and development for it to be true that she’s “just a warrior”. This is no cold, soulless warrior – she feels affection for Ido, she feels romantic affection for Hugo, she marvels at the world around her including chocolate and oranges – and importantly she feels anger at injustice and displays an abundance of courage.
I dunno, you seem to have a long-running beef with cute CGI women – you didn’t think much of Aki Ross “Dr. Beautiful” in your review of “Final Fantasy” – even though she was “The smartest person in the room”.
Since they made Alita female, something I’m really surprised didn’t make it onto your radar at all given how much angst you express over what you see as one-dimensional female characters is that yes, she has built-in fighting skills but what’s crucial is that *she uses her own discretion* to apply her skills and abilities to fight for what *she* determines is right. She even rebels at her renewed-life-giver Ido’s protective directives as to what she can and can’t do.
When she’s warned about the plot to kill her at the Motorball games, instead of bailing out as Ido pleads with her to do, she instead says “Oh yeah? Watch this mofos.” You seriously didn’t find that bit of chutzpah to be cool? Wow.
As far as themes borrowed from other films, I saw a lot of Wonder Woman here – she’s in conflict with her concerned, loving “parent” to be allowed to realize her potential to fight for the right – a quest that’s central to Diana’s being – she yearns to be a warrior from the time she’s a child – but you don’t express the same “that’s all she is” beef with WW.
As the great Roger Ebert so perfectly said, It’s not what a movie is about, it’s *how* it’s about it. Themes are not story.
As I said: Because Reasons.
Well, that changes everything! I shall recall my review and write a new one forthwith!
You’re so close to getting it. Keep trying…
No.
When you say “reasons” it comes across that you’re dismissing the spare body that he “happens to have just lying around” as some insignificant afterthought, clumsily shoehorned into the story. He doesn’t “just happen to have it”, why he couldn’t bring himself to get rid of it is central to the story, it’s where the title of the film comes from. His profound grief is at the core of his consciousness – he became a hunter/warrior because of this tragic event, he and Chiren are no longer together because of it. He blames himself for it happening in the first place. I’m incredulous that you were so profoundly moved by “A.I.” – as was I – and yet you just dismiss all of this – eh, she’s got big, silly eyes…???
When he finds this part of a living girl in the junk pile – clearly unheard of given his reaction, he realizes he can give her a new life, the second chance that was denied his actual daughter – he sees it as a second chance for himself as well. He views her as a surrogate daughter, even though she points out that she’s not his daughter.
It makes a profound difference – she’s got a human brain. She’s *alive* not a mere automaton – she has human emotions, passions, aspirations. To say a warrior “is all she is” is just not accurate.
Self-determination is at the core of her character – she defiantly tells the powerful, all-seeing Nova “I don’t need your permission to live” (That doesn’t ring the MAJ girlpower bell at all?) She struggles to realize what she knows is her potential – which given what I know about you I would think would resonate in a huge way – something you once said to me that you pride yourself on is that you use your talents…yet this aspect of the character apparently made no impression on you. Again….???
You didn’t address it, I’m curious what you see as the difference between her and Diana/Wonder Woman.
Yes, I was dismissing this. Contrivance and coincidence does not powerful storytelling make.
As I said elsewhere, how a story goes about being what it’s about *matters.* This movie does it poorly.
I think you give Cameron an undue amount of blame for a character he didn’t originally create. It’s like you wrote the entire thing to validate a catchy subtext.
Alita is literally a blank slate, and you condemn her for being what. A blank slate.
Sure, Alita isn’t perfect, and that’s why we people like her. She’s strong, but she also makes mistakes and wrong decisions. She’s not pandering to the cringy demographic who forgot Ripley existed and who’s perfect in every way.
I hate the term “Nothing is original these days” but in this context it best describes what you’re getting at.. You’ll always see elements of something else in something. Stories about robots and humans will have robots and humans in them. Stories about dystopian futures will have dystopian elements. An original story in these settings has more of a responsibility to be different and stand out.
If you go into the movie already hating dystopian futures and robots, you
didn’t give it a fair chance. You just named other movies with similar
elements an gave the impression it wasn’t trying to be different. Alita
isn’t blade runner just because the future is messed up and there’s
mechanical people. It’s called a genre. Every western isn’t Tombstone.
A story based on a comic/manga should first thrive to be a representation of it’s source material, which you didn’t read. It doesn’t need to change everything to do with the setting it originated in. When people see Batman, they’re going to assume his story takes place in Gotham. Maybe some people are tired of seeing Gotham, but it’s part of the characters story, and chances are you’re going to end up there.
Also you used “Born Sexy Yesterday” and gave a link. It just doesn’t hold up
after the first paragraph. Alita starts naive, but she spends most of
the movie not listening to the ones trying to keep her out of danger.
She proves she still has a will of her own. The manga further expands on
her independence. Also, would you have wanted Cameron to have made
Alita more like Zarya from overwatch so she’s muscular enough?
You’re going out of your way to make Cameron look like he created
the character himself. He just gave her big eyes, but she’s not unique
in having them. Remember Gelda and the others.
It’s too bad you went into the movie finding a reason to dislike it. You might of enjoyed it more with an open mind and a browse through the manga section of the book store.
Poor Cameron and Rodriguez. They were forced to adapt this story, and the people holding them hostage wouldn’t allow them to change the material in any way. If only they’d had the opportunity to make…well, any other movie instead.
It’s probably for the best. If you change something too much you get things like Fan 4 Stic.
Such a tragedy.
Geez. I actually liked Alita and yet even I can’t resist rolling my eyes at this post. With fans like this, Alita doesn’t really need…
A lot of movie producers and directors work with characters that they didn’t originally create. Terence Young did not create James Bond. Tim Burton did not create Bruce Wayne. Brian DePalma did not create Carrie White. Francis Ford Coppola did not create Michael Corleone. Richard Donner did not create Clark Kent. Bryan Singer did not create Wolverine. Alfred Hitchcock did not create Norman Bates. And so on and so on…
The fanboys have returned to the comments section to make their tired and inane arguments. The regular commenters have regenerated the patience to address them. Nature is healing.
Spring is here! Bingo is being played! Bugs are being eaten!
https://youtu.be/nbnhQvaAu_I
It’s bingo without the need for social distancing. Let there be much rejoicing.
Is there a point you’re trying to make besides rolling your eyes and listing a bunch of names. It seems like you started something, but it just ended without getting to what you were trying to say. If you scoff at something without a counter argument, you’re just going to look silly.
Well, I was tempted to list a number of reasons why your post wasn’t likely to convince anyone but I was already on the verge of tl;dr territory as it was.
Besides, several other posters have made better counterarguments that were more succinct.
Anyway, your post made so many assumptions about MaryAnn that it reminded me of some of the arguments that were made in defense of The Phantom Menace when it was first released. Arguments like ‘”if you don’t like this movie, you don’t like Star Wars,” “if you don’t like this movie, you don’t like movies for kids,” and of course, “if you don’t like this movie, then you don’t like movies.”
Such arguments may seem like a good way to blow off steam but they’re not likely to persuade anyone to change their opinion of the movie.
That’s just the impression it gave. I felt like it was blaming the movie for being from a genre that had all the elements she was tired of seeing already. Like the “WoW clone” argument of not giving any other game a chance if it has anything to do with fantasy.
Felt like her mind was already made up. And for what you quoted me, was in regards to her having expectations of it being vastly different than anything in the genre when it was trying to stay close to its source material. We can expect more from an original idea to stand out, but an adapted work needs to take care in how far it tries to be different. Remember Fan 4 Stic.
Without knowledge of the source material, one’s fair judgement on the movie is entirely based on one’s knowledge of similar concepts or movies.
So while it is in no way the greatest movie to have ever been, to have a movie these days that is even remotely close to it’s source material is a huge step in the right direction. We just have too many movies these days that want to be so different, or push social agendas, that they’re hardly recognizable anymore. Some movies just want to tell their story.
I’m not saying it’s wrong to dislike the movie, but to judge it fairly based on it’s source and not just the assumption that it’s a cheap knock off of a number of things. There will always be movies within an era that have similar concepts because they are popular for their time. There’s also coincidence and the fact that nothing is original anymore.
You have to look at it from both sides. Maybe the story wasn’t the best thing in the world, but Cameron chose to adapt it. What fans look forward to producers/directors putting their spin on a product? How many just want one solid adaptation? There’s been more misses than hits. We just get lucky sometimes.
You’re right, it’s hard to change people’s opinions, but they could try and look at it from at least another perspective before final judgement.
So much projection going on here…
So now, not only are you being deflective, you’re just replying to other comments that disagree with me without adding anything to the conversation. Go ahead and keep thumbs upping yourself too.
Nah, that was my upvote, not hers. She has regular readers who upvote when they feel like it. But you can believe what you want. :-)
Anyone can see who has upvoted a comment.
You can continue to insist that I engage with you if you like. But that’s not how conversation works.
I’m not sure I agree with you a hundred percent on your police work, there, Lou.
Please supply evidence that I hate “dystopian futures and robots,” that I think that Alita not being “perfect” is a problem, that I “went into the movie finding a reason to dislike it,” and that I have “forgot[ten] Ripley existed.”
I mean, just for starters, and then we can take it from there.
Not only has Cercie hit all the squares on the Bingo cards, I’m tempted to add a new one: “There are no original stories, so why complain that this movie is derivative?”
If you’d like to update the bingo card, I will update it here. :-)
It’s the Ecclesiastes argument. Though I suppose you could also blame it on the ancient Egyptians.
After all, people have been complaining about the lack of original stories for a long time…
Nice to see at least one person gets that point I was trying to make.
LOL
It’s more about the impression you gave. “Hating dystopian futures and robots” was an example of a mindset. Putting down a movie because it had similar elements you were tired of, but are part of the genre it represents. I don’t know if you’re familiar with the old World of Warcraft argument where people will often dismiss any new game as a WoW clone simply because it’s placed in a fantasy setting. Without giving it even a chance to be something other than what they expect.
You did your homework knowing when the manga was written, but condemned it for showcasing things it adopted in a time when they were popular. It may have borrowed ideas or inspiration. It wouldn’t be the first thing to do so. Even with that all set aside, there’s only so much you can change an adapted story without creating disaster or alienating the fans. There has to be a balance.
That should cover the “dystopian futures and robots” part and why it seemed you had “went into the movie finding a reason to dislike it.” A fair assessment would be to how it stands up to its source material, and go from there. Because you’ll be trying to see elements of that instead of other movies you’re familiar with.
And for the “Ripley” part, I apologize for not phrasing it more clearly. I didn’t mean you. I mean I did not feel it was pandering to those groups who suddenly need a strong female character because they forgot Ripley already existed. Some generic Mary Sue character who’s so perfect that they become relatable.
Alita is strong, but she’s flawed. She’s not perfect and there can be better written characters out there, but she was breath of fresh air compared to others. Just look at the big Alita vs Captain Marvel debate a while back. She can have a relationship, and be strong, and get into trouble without feeling like she’s pushing some womens empowerment agenda. This is because the story for what it’s worth, tried to stay close to its source material, and not try to push extra ideas of times we’re in that we’re all sick of. For that small thing, it should be commended. But without knowledge of the manga, a lot of people don’t know that or see that. It’s understandable.
Its a product of its times, but tries to stay true to itself. I hope that helps. Just so you know, I have no hostility toward you, even if we can agree to disagree.
But you applied to me. And it cannot stick, because I’ve positively reviewed plenty of films that feature dystopian futures and/or robots.
There is NO such debate except among manbaby fanboys who are upset that women are taking center stage in stories they believe “belong” to men, and must be told only on terms they dictate.
And this is where you give yourself away as one of them.
Well I’m sorry I expected more from a ‘professional’ than short petty replies and deflection when I humored you by explaining mine in more detail. I see now that you’ll continue to be evasive and argue everything that doesn’t even get to the heart of the matter. Sure, you may have reviewed many other movies, but the conversation was about this one and the impression you made with your review of this one.
I think I could have a much more reasonable conversation with someone else I disagree with in the comments section than you, and that is just sad. But go ahead and post a snide remark to any two sentences in this paragraph so you can get the last word in without every getting to a counter point. This kind of thing is probably why Rotten Tomatoes needs two scores.
I made my case perfectly plainly *in my review.* So sorry if that’s not enough for you.