Oh, you absolute manchildren who cannot cope with a woman headlining a Marvel movie? Who cannot abide a female actor with the temerity to take on such a role while also expressing zero interest in courting your fandom? An actor who doesn’t give a shit what you think? Just wait till you see the movie! (You know you will.)
In Captain Marvel, Brie Larson’s alien badass Vers is a warrior for *checks notes* social justice. She doesn’t realize at first that that is what she is going to be, but when the evidence is laid out before her, it’s what she knows she has to do. She is a woman who overcomes all the gaslighting she has been subjected to, the lies that attempt to ensure she can never reach her commanding potential, the lies that tell her she is other than and lesser than what she really is. Because what she could be scares some people! This is a movie overtly about someone who is invited to see through the massive edifice of bullshit cultural bigotry that she has been subjected to, the stuff that tells her what is right and what is wrong, who is an enemy and who is a friend, who matters and who doesn’t… and she does look, and it’s uncomfortable at first, but the truth is the truth and ya gotta deal with it. Which she does.
Which is what makes her better than you, you whiny crybabies, and you know it, and that’s why you hate her. Her ability to face challenges to her preconceptions and to change and grow as she learns new things terrifies you, because you can’t do that, or won’t. What’s more, Vers is so goddamned awesome and powerful and confident that she doesn’t even need to kick a man’s ass — not even a man who desperately needs it and is literally asking for it — to prove it. Hidebound, small-minded men are beneath her, and she will not play their stupid dick-measuring games. Vers is not a woman succeeding in a man’s world by following men’s rules… and she’s not a female superhero succeeding as a character in a blockbuster movie by doing the same stuff male superheroes do. She is throwing out the rule book and going her own way.
But no, wait, Captain Marvel gets better. The writing-directing team of Anna Boden and Ryan Fleck have brought an indie ethos — their Mississippi Grind is a small masterpiece — to the big, rowdy comic-book action movie, and turned the origin story upside down and inside out. Almost literally. (Thank goodness, because we did not need another straightforward origin story.) As the film opens, Vers (Larson: Basmati Blues, Kong: Skull Island) is already living a life that is a science-fiction dream, at least as current fashions for nerdery would have it: She lives on a sleek high-tech alien world, part of the interstellar Kree civilization consisting of all sorts of alien races. She works as an elite soldier-spy with a small team of fellow badasses led by Yon-Rogg (Jude Law: Fantastic Beasts: The Crimes of Grindelwald, King Arthur: Legend of the Sword), who is also her good friend and mentor. It’s a Star Trek utopia. Yes, she has strange nightmares and odd memories of her earlier life, some of which we clearly recognize as a childhood on mid-20th-century Earth, but, so, like… this another Guardians of the Galaxy, rescued-by-her-space-parents kinda thing, right? Cool! It’s what we dorks have always wanted, to get whisked away from boring old Earth. Yay! (Seriously, manbaby dudes: this isn’t a fantasy only boy-geeks have, and shame on you for not appreciating that and, apparently, not being able to identify with and empathize with that when it’s a woman living it.)
Of course, what’s going on with Vers is a lot more complicated than that, and so Captain Marvel is as much a refreshing sci-fi mystery as it is anything else: What are the secrets of Vers’s past, and what shape will her future take when she discovers them? It’s hardly spoilery to “reveal” that amnesiac Vers is actually Carol Danvers, a USAF pilot presumed dead in a crash (on Earth) several years earlier, so when she arrives on planet C-53 — aka Earth — in pursuit of creepy terrorist shapeshifting reptiloid Skrulls led by Talos (Ben Mendelsohn: Robin Hood, Ready Player One) who are after a technological macguffin, many questions are raised. Starting with, Just how is it possible that backward Earth — “a real shithole,” as one of Vers’s Kree colleagues calls it — has produced something that superadvanced alien reptile baddies would be interested in? And going all the way through to: What the heck is going on with Vers/Danvers, and where did she get her energy-bolt-throwing superpowers, which no other Kree seems to have?
Captain Marvel is, in fact, a historical movie: it is set in the 1990s, which is when Vers and the Skrulls arrive on Earth. Boden and Fleck have some solid fun introducing us to “early” versions of S.H.I.E.L.D.’s Nick Fury (Samuel L. Jackson: Glass, Avengers: Infinity War) and Phil Coulson (Clark Gregg: Live by Night, Labor Day) — damn if age-regression FX technology hasn’t reached seamlessly plausible maturity — which gives the movie a sidebar origin story for the Avengers project. But there isn’t a lot of overt nostalgia going on. Sure, there’s the bit set in a Blockbuster, and the NIN tee Vers borrows as a disguise, and other little throwback asides. But it’s mere set-dressing, not the cheesy self-indulgent nonsense it could have been. Captain Marvel is more earnest than that. Oh, this isn’t a humorless film, to be sure, but its humor is gentle, and occasionally bitter, sometimes both at the same time. Like with Goose the cat, who insinuates himself herself into the proceedings and won’t let go. (Surely it’s no coincidence that Goose calls to mind the 1970s Disney movie The Cat from Outer Space.) And as Vers/Danvers starts to reclaim her past, and the people she once knew, like Danvers’s best friend, fellow pilot Maria Rambeau (Lashana Lynch: Fast Girls), and her sparky 11-year-old daughter, Monica (Akira Akbar). Sweet and bitter, grief and relief: a lot of contradictory emotions are at play here, without the movie ever getting bogged down in its complicated humanity. There’s a charming fleetness to Captain Marvel even as it’s rather melancholy, particularly for a comic-book action adventure.
Oh, and about Rambeau: Yes — yes! — the world of Vers/Danvers is a world full of women. Just like the real world! (Sorry, manbabies. Women exist.) Which also includes another woman on her Kree team (Gemma Chan: Mary Queen of Scots, Crazy Rich Asians) as well as the scientist, Dr. Wendy Lawson (Annette Bening: 20th Century Women, Danny Collins), who developed the macguffin everyone is after and who seems, from Vers’s messed-up flashes of memory, to be someone important to her. (There are lots of people of color, too! Though some of them are blue…) This is not a world, as is so often the case onscreen, of women isolated from one another. That may be part of why it feels like Vers/Danvers stalks through the movie with so much self-assurance. Some of it is down to the fact that she comes from — at least as far as she has any memory — the sci-fi realm of Kree where, it seems, there isn’t any sexism and so she doesn’t realize that she is “supposed” to scurry around without upsetting men too much. But a lot of it is because, in the context in which this movie exists in our sexist world — and she takes some sexist shit in the movie on Earth, as well — she is nevertheless not alone in her femaleness, as if she were the oddity too many movies, especially the big blockbusters, treat women as.
I mean! Even when us mere Earth women don’t hold much truck with being obsequious to men, we become the other side of the Either/Or women exist on: we’re either “proper” women or “problematic” women. As depicted here, though, Vers/Danvers is completely outside that paradigm. It’s so refreshing… and it’s something that you don’t even realize is an unspoken subtext of almost every depiction of women in our culture until it’s suddenly not there. Even the fantastic Wonder Woman — about which a lot of what I’ve said here would also apply — didn’t make me think about this.
It’s so terrific to see that no one involved with Captain Marvel is interested in a timid, toe-dunking experiment in a female-led MCU movie. (It took Marvel long enough, so they had plenty of time to muster the courage for it.) Nope: doubling-down has been engaged in. Vers/Danvers is not fucking around, and neither is Captain Marvel: nothing and no one here has the time or the desire for coddling anyone or anything. Some people were never going to give this heroine or her movie a pass anyway, were always going to condemn her and it for the same things they love the likes of Tony Stark and Steve Rogers and Clark Kent and Thor for. So Captain Marvel upends it all, from our expectations about how these stories should be told and what sort of crimes are being committed therein to who gets to put things right.
Honestly, the big message of Captain Marvel is this: “Whoever you are and whatever you think, your perspective is probably too narrow. Open it up a bit.” That’s what science fiction is supposed to be about, and it often gets lost in the maelstrom. Not this time. Even if some of the putative devotees of the genre don’t want to see it.
Great movie, great review!
*horn blows* Trolls incoming! To the ramparts!
out of curiosity, why is anyone who disagrees or doesn’t like the movie a troll? Just curious. I’ve seen lots of women reviewers give the movie a bad to average score… Does that make them trolls? The creator of the character captain marvel… didn’t like the movie,he thought wonderwoman was the better film… does that make him a troll?
No one said that anyone who disagrees is a troll. It’s just.. when a movie like this focuses on a woman, invariably there will be people who hate it purely for that reason. Sometimes the people who hate it haven’t even seen it. Or, you know… people personally insult MaryAnn because they disagree with her. Jurgan knew people would do that, because it happens all too often
Respectful disagreement (as you’ve done in another comment) is not trollish in the slightest :)
Yet Magazines like… MarySue however, do state that “all” the negative comments come from trolls. Just like “The Ghostbusters movie”, truth be told, it wasn’t because of female cast that turned people off, it was the bad humor, lack of a “straight man” (i mean the comedy term not the gender term), and such. That movie could have been so much better with just a few tweeks…
Picture if they had brought Annie Potts in, she played Janine, the secretary, and have her talk about how sad it is what happened to the first ghost busters… “what first ghost busters?” then say that after the battle with Vigo, the ghostbusters and most of the city slowly started to forget what happened. they forgot about ghosts, forgot about ghost busting, footage of what happened was dismissed as a hoax and eventually lost.
It would have given a new impact to seeing the old team as they were… It wouldn’t have fixed all the issues but… it would have made the movie feel a lot different.
BUT according to many, because i have that view… i’m a troll…heck im a russian troll… (seriously they are now blaming the failings of ghostbusters on RUSSIAN Trolls, not just trolls)
and thats the thing with the “trolls” on Rotten tomatoes… the VAST majority of the “comments” were not hate based, they were about brie’s lack of emotional range, about how they destroyed the Skrull… and how they Undermined Ronan the Accuser as a threat. Comments like that was even directly quoted by MarySue and other magazines and shown as -troll comments.
Then you really ought to complain to The Mary Sue and those other magazines, instead of coming to this site and attacking Jurgan for something he never said. If you read through the comments on this page, and on the “gendered abuse” page, you’ll see many people attacking MaryAnn in irrational and sexist ways. (There are comments which were deleted that were even worse.) Those people are trolls, whether or not the movie is deserving of criticism. But if you start making straw man arguments like, “People on the FlickFilosopher site think that anyone who disagrees with them is a troll,” without any evidence, then it makes you start to look irrational, too.
DID The MarySue say that, though? They tweeted that all the negative reviews came from men — which is false, and I railed about that on Twitter. But that’s not the same thing AT ALL.
The trolls were the one shit-posting comments about a movie they hadn’t yet seen, merely to trash the “want to see” score. That is pure hate.
Isn’t that the point of the “Want to see score” though, to say if you want to see it or not… and the comments are/were not based on the movie but, the trailer… The want to see score is… if a trailer looks good or not… And to most, they thought Brie Larson looked emotionless in all the clips… Want to see scores end when a movie is released so no one who posts there COULD have seen the movie. At the same time some movies got high want to see scores…
Now you have the flip side to that, some companies use “bots” and such to artificially increase their want to see scores. Just like some companies on Amazon use “Paid clients” to review their products, and or use fake customers to make their product look better.
Most readers know to take stuff like that with a grain of salt… But again, the first trailers for Captain marvel looked bad, they didn’t make the movie look all that interesting.. They used a “Typical” Action style blaster up trailer concept that is “supposed to appeal to men” while saying its not a movie for men… and didn’t touch on any of the emotional parts that i’m usually interested in…
Review-bombing campaigns can skew the score so that it disproportionately reflects the opinion of a relatively small and coordinated group, not the interest of the general public.
Can you link to any reports that can verify this? Thanks.
If troll campaigns can target the “want to see” score to make it negative, and bots can boost the “want to see” score to make it positive, then the “want to see” score is untrustworthy and useless.
Here’s how the public shows its interest in a movie: the box office. Captain Marvel will hit $900 million this weekend, and $1 billion shortly after. Looks like a lot of people are interested.
Earlier you said:
None of these are things one can complain about until one has seen the movie. This is the opposite of “want to see.”
No. We have seen now — have absolute concrete proof — that online hate is real hate. Online hate does not need to be amplified.
Literally no one said that.
First, the title of this report, Captain Marvel movie review: superpowered female SJW invites manbaby nerds to suck it…Show’s hate, essentially name calling of anyone who “dislikes the movie” because it doesn’t fall into line with the comic/MCU’s past. Next, the Mary Sue has actually stated, its a movie made for women, not men, its not FOR men.
And again, as to the trailer which people complained about. In the first trailers… Brie Larson only shows 1 expression, 1 attitude… every scene from the flash backs to the subway she only shows 1 expression.
THAT is what people were complaining about, there was no smile, or smirk, there was no fun loving Captain Marvel… there was no Captain Marvel making army vs airforce jokes… There was just 1 deadpan wooden face. and that turned a lot of people off.
Finally i served in the military, i faced sexual harassment in the military, i also know, Duty, Honor, Commitment, and Loyalty… These are things that Captain Marvel shows… But in the movie, she gets away with doing things that would have any soldier, any OFFICER getting black marks on their record, and or facing issues if not “court martial”.
That’s not who the manbabies are.
This website is not The Mary Sue.
$900 million by the end of this weekend. Not a whole lot of turned-off people.
She is committed and loyal to her human friends. She honors a higher duty to help those who need aid (the refugees). And yeah, she would probably get court-martialed by the Kree Starforce for her actions. But maybe you missed the fact that the Kree are the bad guys, and that deciding she shouldn’t be loyal to the bad guys is a GOOD THING.
First, the 900 million, in marvel terms, and for summer blockbusters, thats actually low average. Black panther a wonderful movie pulled 350 million domestic by week 2, compared to the 264 for Captain marvel. Its sad but, between Production costs, and advertising, Marvel might just break even on this one. Its trending very very close to Iron Man 3… which topped out at 400 million and wasn’t considered a good profit for marvel. (200 million budget +150 million advertising)
Now a to the Starforce, you also have to remember they are different in the comics, they not actually badguys at first, and really only became such after the Shi-ar took over the Kree. They were originally created as, well, commandos… A last ditch effort to defend the kree empire. And the Skrull were BAD guys too… The point and problem is, we don’t get that context with the movie. We don’t hear about things like… The Super Skrull, and how the Skrull tried to infiltrate and take over the earth… or how the Skrull actually tried to get the earth to destroy itself in nuclear war…
Even the Creator of Captain Marvel wasn’t happy with what the movie did with the Skrull.
But again your overlooking her actions prior to leaving, and even her history in flash backs. The actions don’t actually show her as honorable.
I have NO idea what metrics you’re using. It’s a big success that has already overtaken a lot of other blockbuster films that are considered successes. And it’s not done yet. (And Black Panther’s sky-high box office is a rare event, and therefore not a realistic point of comparison. Saying a film made less than BP doesn’t mean that film is a failure.)
https://www.cbr.com/captain-marvel-wonder-woman-surpass-box-office/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2019/03/22/box-office-captain-marvel-brie-larson-wonder-woman-spider-man-thor-ragnarok-venom-hunger-games-twilight/#1de325836c14
The movies are not the comics. The movies should tell stories that stand on their own, even for viewers who haven’t read the comics.
Okay, please give specific examples of how her actions IN THE FLASHBACKS aren’t honorable, and even worthy of being court-martialed, as you claim.
The Movie has made 328 million domestic, 590 million international. iron man 3, 409 and 805 million, off a 200 million budget, right now its tracking at 14th… the problem is though its budget. at 152-175 million + add costs, its not doing well. It NEEDED to be in the 450-500 million range… remember they only get 55% of domestic and 15% international. and unless they get double the investment back…the mouse… isn’t happy.
You want to talk domestic gross vs budget? Okay. It compares VERY well to most of the other introductory solo MCU movies. Captain America: $177 million domestic against a $140 million budget. Thor: $181 mil gross/$150 mil budget. Ant-Man: $180 mil gross/$130 mil budget. Doctor Strange: $232 mil gross/$165 mil budget.
How about domestic vs budget for MCU sequels? Okay. It’s doing better than Captain America: Winter Soldier ($259 mil gross/$170 mil budget) and Thor: Ragnarok ($315 mil gross/$180 mil budget) to name a few.
At $328 million domestic against a $152 million budget, Captain Marvel is doing better in its third week than all of these films during their entire runs. It’s in the same league as Spider-Man: Homecoming ($334 mil gross/$175 mil budget), Guardians of the Galaxy ($333 mil gross/$170 mil budget) and Iron Man ($318 mil gross/$140 mil budget). And it’s doing better than all those films did internationally as well. And its theatrical run is not yet done.
By your logic, all these films are disappointments. Or maybe, just maybe, Marvel invests in each solo film with the confidence that the audience will keep coming back for the sequels and team-up films because they’re telling a larger story. And maybe you should stop trying to convince yourself Captain Marvel is a failure when the reality is it’s doing just as well as, or better than, many of the MCU’s other films.
The film is doing well. Get used to it.
*Captain Marvel* is only in its third week, and you’re comparing it to the full run of *Iron Man 3.* And also IM3’s budget was $200 million.
CM is an unqualified success already, and it’s a long way from being done earning money.
Captain Marvel isn’t 14th. As of 3/29, with $331M domestic, it’s currently the 10th highest grossing MCU movie. It hasn’t been in 14th place since 3/16. The current #14 is Winter Soldier.
To get it lower, the 4 movies in front would be the three Tobey Maguire Spider-Man movies, and the first Deadpool. But that would make Captain Marvel 14th of 55, rather than 10th of 21.
Captain Marvel has, by its 20th day of release, already exceeded the average MCU take internationally ($938M over $879M). It will clear the average domestic cume ($343M) before the end of the weekend. Neither Spider-Man: Homecoming nor GotG1 can make that claim.
I’m not sure why this is your basis of comparison, but by day 20, Iron Man 3 had brought in $346M. Captain Marvel is off that pace by about 4%. On the other hand, while it was off Iron Man 3’s take by 12% in the opening weekend, it was down 6% after week 2, and only 3% for week 3. Meaning it might start to outpace Iron Man 3 pretty soon here.
The next movie on the MCU list, GotG1, had a similar budget to Captain Marvel. By day 20, it had brought in $231M of its eventual $333M. The mouse was so unhappy, they gave it two sequels, even eating crow over a decision to fire the director. And, a ride at one of the parks. Yes, I know it’s a redress of an existing ride. But more specifically, it’s a permanent redress of a popular ride. It’s also, to date, the only MCU themed attraction at any US Disney park*. Such unhappy. Very Disappoint. Wow.
Basically, you’re wrong on both the numbers and what they mean in the short and long term. But I imagine this is where you move the goalposts. Perhaps looking at inflation adjustment? Or maybe you can assert merchandising sales are off somebody’s expectations? I’m sure you think of something.
*Hong Kong Disneyland has two: an Iron Man ride since 2017, and an Ant-Man and the Wasp attraction that soft-opened yesterday.
SPOILER ALERT
Dude, the movie states that there are a lot of scattered Skrull running around in the MCU. Some humans in the MCU are evil, some are good, some of the Kree are evil and some are good, why wouldn’t the same be true of the Skrull? Isn’t that a step forward from depicting an entire species of alien as an “evil, barabarous, warlike race?” I have problems with the film (not enough Ronan for one thing), but its humanistic handling of the Skrull is a huge improvement over the comics. I’m sure the Super Skrull will make an appearance down the line in the MCU, and hopefully it has an improved backstory as well.
END SPOILER
A lot of your complaints boil down to: “This isn’t the way it was in these specific comics.” You’re free to judge the film that way if you like, although I’d argue that there are plenty of things in the film that are very comics accurate. Just know that most people who watch the movie judge it on its own merits. The GotG movies changed a ton of stuff from the comics, but plenty of GotG fans still liked them. The same is true of almost every comic adaptation. Your standards are not universal. No one thinks to themselves, “What? Now that I have discovered these characters aren’t completely accurate to the source material, my opinion of the film has changed completely!”
No, it’s not. But if you’re absolutely determined to convince yourself that audiences are not loving this movie, go for it.
And *Iron Man 3* “topped out” at $1.2 billion globally. *Captain Marvel* is on track to surpass that.
True of every movie adapted from another source. You must be constantly disappointed by such movies.
And now you’ve removed your Black Panther comparison after I criticized it. Don’t think I don’t see what you’re doing.
It’s interesting how you keep conveniently forgetting the GLOBAL box office. As of this writing, Captain Marvel has already surpassed the TOTAL worldwide box office of Wonder Woman, Spider-Man, Spider-Man 2, X-Men: Days of Future Past, and Deadpool, and is only slightly behind Thor: Ragnarok and Spider-Man: Homecoming. And again, it’s not done playing in theaters yet.
According to your argument, if Captain Marvel is a disappointing failure, then all these other movies must be failures too. If you want to think so, be my guest.
(EDIT, a couple of hours later: Aaaand it has now passed Thor: Ragnarok and Homecoming. As of today it’s officially the 10th-biggest superhero movie of all time, and will probably climb higher than that after I post this. But yeah, “sad,” “Marvel might just break even on this one.” Sure.)
At no point has anyone here claimed that everyone who dislikes this movie is a manbaby nerd.
The trailer is not indicative of the film. Carol cracks jokes constantly, expresses many emotions, and has a lot of fun – a little too much fun for me. Minimizing her military service was a storytelling choice – I’d like to have seen more too, but it’s already a long movie. Your complaint about the lack of army vs. air force jokes is bizarrely specific. I also talk to many air force pilots every day, and sure, the rivalry is a thing, but it’s by no means a constant topic of casual conversation.
There were a lot of people complaining about the wooden acting in the 1st trailer. However, there were and are also a huge group of people, mostly geeky men, initially complaining because they dislike Danvers as a character, because to them she’s the face of “SJW Marvel,” and doesn’t “deserve” to be promoted to the A-list (but the GotG do for some reason?). Civil War II also left a bad impression with many fans due to the way the writers forced Carol to act out of character to generate drama and conflict. The Carol in this film is mostly based on DeConnick’s initial run, but is ultimately her own thing and should be judged in the context of this movie.
After Larson’s awkward comment about diversity in film journalism, anti-feminist forces mobilized against the movie. Anti-feminist content is a booming business, so there are dozens of negative videos about Larson on youtube calling for a boycott of the film. You can smell the anger and fear in the comments like a heaping handful of feces, and some people are constantly on the lookout for the next target. That is how manbabies do.
Adults who dislike a movie think about it, read a range of thoughts and opinions if they’re interested, make a few observations, maybe some suggestions, then move on with their lives. Manbabies are emotionally threatened by opinions different than their own – they retreat into a shelter of tribal absolutism, self-fulfilling prophecy, and projection, and wage war on those that dare to like what they do not.
Manbaby geeks are seeing spaces that they thought were made just for them open up, and it scares them. Not content to celebrate the things they love, they see love that they don’t understand and it fills them with hate. They respond to any criticism of what they love with even more hate. If you’re a calm, mature, respectful critic of Captain Marvel, then good for you, put your voice out there. However, the fact that you and others like you exist, doesn’t magically negate the cancer of manbabies.
Except that is not at all why I said the manbabies hate the film, and it’s also not why THEY say they hate the film.
Yeah, the Mary Sue is not the definitive voice on who this movie is made for.
Okay, for the last time: Every complaint made against this movie based on things like trailers, posters, etc, could be made equally reasonably about many other films and many other comic book films. There is a clear double standard at work, and fuck those people who think they are simply being logical when they deploy it.
And this is never true about movies about male heroes?
It’s nice to see that Lashana Lynch and Akira Akbar have alliterative names. Stan Lee would approve.
How lovely! I bought my tickets for today weeks ago. Then early reviews came in – sort of meh. Hmm, did Marvel blow this opportunity? Then Mary Sue reviews came in, pointed out that those early reviews were 100% from men, that the movie was actually terrific.
Now it’s the day of my ticket. I’m on my way to the theatre when I get dinged about MaryAnn’s review. Hold my breath, for this is the acid test and I’m course committed anyhow. Will she hate it? I cautiously open the review and waves of relief come over me.
Kick-ass review it is! Lights are about to go down, here I go..
That’s interesting to me that you’d read reviews about a movie when you’ve already bought a ticket. Personally, I prefer to know as little as possible about a movie once I’ve decided that I’m for sure going to see it.
I’m spoiler proof. I like the film form, and even if I know everything about a play ahead of time, I enjoy decoding the act structure, critiquing the script’s ability to accomplish what I know is coming, enjoy the acting, etc.
I’m about to see HAMLET. Please, please don’t spoil it for me!
Uh, there’s a stream, a castle, some actors, a bit of fog, father issues. I think you are safe to go.
Boring Lion King remake without the animals and Elton John songs. Skip it.
I completely understand. I learn every detail I can about a film, then I sit in the front row, always to the far left, by the speakers (my OCD makes it difficult to follow films without closed captioning), granting me a skewed perspective as I devour the subtext without having to trip over plot twists and turns. I realize that most people save such pleasures for the second viewing, but I loath cinemas, and if a film is good enough to get me there, I only want to contend with sticky floors and anti-social audiences once.
I also am the reverse. I once took my mother to see a movie. Out of nowhere, they *killed the dog.* (Not Old Yeller, more recent.) Now I read at least three reviews for every movie. Doesn’t spoil a thing for me.
This website might be useful, if you don’t know of it yet.
https://www.doesthedogdie.com/
Why, thank you! I should have known such a site existed, but happy you pointed it out to me!
You’re welcome. I try to enjoy any surprises a movie may have in store for me, but dogs dying is a surprise I could generally do without. (This may be one of the things that soured me on Alita.) :-)
But that is not true and never has been. There are female critics who do not like the film. Which is fine — women are not a hive mind. And The Mary Sue’s blatant falsehood in this regard is hugely problematic, and not at all helpful of any feminist cause.
All that said, I hope you enjoy the film!
I did enjoy it very much. Sorry to have repeated what turns out to be hyperbole.
So, the movie is meant to promote the feminist cause?
You’ve seen it. Or, you will. (No use pretending otherwise.) So you can decide for yourself if it does that.
It’s a woman about a female superhero, codirected and cowritten by a woman. In a world that wasn’t fucking misogynist as hell, there’d be nothing feminist about it. We don’t live in that world, so this film is feminist.
But that’s not what I was talking about, which you well know. But I’ll translate for you anyway: There is nothing feminist about suggesting that all women think alike… such as that all women film critics will automatically or “naturally” give a positive review to a movie about a woman.
Also this: You think you’re being clever by trying to get me to “admit” that there’s anything feminist about this movie. You want to catch me out and declare “See, it’s all about identity politics!” To which I say to you: If you don’t think movies by men about men aren’t about identity politics, you’re only admitting to your own blinders. Men are not neutral or default humans. Movies that act like they are? Identity fucking politics.
Maryann these Marvel movies were about super heroes. Not MALE superheroes but both men and women teaming up to defeat evil. Your stupid kind just has to ruin the day by making it about feminism. Give me one example where a chauvinist agenda was pushed in ANY of the Marvel movies leading up to this one. Go use your poisonous hate for men somewhere else.
Marvel Comics has a lot of female superheroes. Just doing a Google search, I count at least 20 I recognize, plus more I’m not familiar with. And the Avengers is a team with a rotating roster. So it’s interesting that the MCU’s original team of Avengers was 5 men and 1 woman; currently the movie roster stands at TWELVE men and TWO women.
You’ll say that’s fine, that’s normal, they’re all just superheroes together. Okay, so in that case, you’ll have no problem if Marvel starts making origin movies for their 20 female superheroes, and starts putting them in the Avengers and switching some of the old dudes out. How would you feel about an Avengers movie with 9 men and 5 women? How about 10 women and 4 men? Or 12 women and 2 men? Or a movie where IT JUST SO HAPPENS that all 14 Avengers are women?
You’re still cool with that, right? (I am.) After all, it’s not about men and women, it’s about superheroes fighting evil together. Gender doesn’t matter. So an all-female Avengers movie would be just fine with you. Right?
If you’re NOT fine with that, maybe you should ask yourself why. Maybe you’re the one with the chauvinist agenda that demands that your superhero movies still be mostly about men.
All-female Avengers?! Despite being a Marvel apostate I wouldn’t hesitate to see that. Actually, I surprisingly enjoyed the Shea Fontana-scripted incarnation of DC Superhero Girls, which focuses on DC’s female characters, envisaged as teenagers all going to Super Hero High. I got a genuine thrill at seeing so many awesomely powered heroines all occupying the same world and getting along, with no romances or assumptions about ‘girly’ interests. I watch that show and think ‘there really needs to be several Avengers-style movies with this cast of characters’.
As much as I generally prefer the MCU to the DCEU so far, I applaud DC for coming out with more woman-centered offerings faster (with creative female talent both in front of and behind the camera): releasing Wonder Woman (and its sequel very soon), filming the all-female Birds of Prey for next year, DC Superhero Girls, etc.
Let’s hope that Marvel Studios listens to Tessa Thompson and her squad.
Man, DC is KILLING it with their diverse casting decisions these days:
https://www.out.com/television/2019/3/19/trans-deaf-artist-chella-man-cast-superhero-dcs-titans
Marvel needs to seriously step up…
If you like animated heroines with powers — all with different body types and personalities and blowing the Bechdel Test out of the water — and if you have a Netflix account, and if you haven’t seen it yet, I think you might really enjoy She-Ra and the Princesses of Power.
I do t think anyone would have an issue if Marvel did origin stories for their Female heroes. I want more heroes. The issue spurs when an SJW agenda is being rammed down my thoat.
At least take me to dinner first.
Yeah, sure, right. Since you used the words “SJW agenda,” I can GUARANTEE that you’ll complain about that “agenda” every time a female superhero movie comes out. Every. Single. Time.
Nothing is being rammed down your throat. Why so dramatic?
1. What about Captain Marvel rams an “agenda” down your throat?
2. IF an “SJW” agenda is being “shoved down your throat” by Captain Marvel, I would invite you to consider that until this movie and Black Panther, and really, even after them, women have been having the, “men are the center of the universe, and women exist solely to prop them up” agenda rammed down our throats since the first Iron Man.
I have argued more than once that a non-trivial number of (white, straight, usually Christian) men perceive actual equality as oppressing them. I’ve had men call me a man-hater because I didn’t take my husband’s last name when I got married. Perfect equality (I keep my name; he keeps his) was seen by these people as oppression of my husband.
We haven’t even achieved anything NEAR equality in the MCU. One, one movie about a woman, and y’all are losing your damn minds.
I’m curious about how you define evil…apparently it doesn’t include sexism.
Sexism is just normal and correct, and ensures that men retain their dominant cultural position.
Pointing out that women are people, and as equally worthy of dignity? *That’s* the evil.
So sorry I’ve ruined your day.
Oh, wait: No, I’m not sorry in the least.
If you can honestly watch Captain Marvel and not see things like her lifelong determination to smash “you can’t do that,” her relationship and endgame with her Kree trainer, even some of the music choices as deliberate comments on sexism and empowerment of women, then you are as deliberately avoiding the idea of women overcoming restrictions put on them by the patriarchy as Maryanne is deliberate in seeking them out. (And yes, that was all one sentence.) I could give you a long history of literary scholarship and point out that looking at the text divorced from its social context is one theory of how to examine stories. It is neither more nor less political than any other way of looking at it. Upholding the status quo is just as political and ideological as arguing for change.
Also, just FYI? Coming to an individual’s own website and telling her to do what she is very upfront about doing “somewhere else”? Is the height (or perhaps nadir) of male arrogance.
Well the “character” is about Feminist politics, there is no question about that in the comics. Marvel has changed her in the comics to be just that. An Avid Feminist, and unfortunately Self Righteous now.
While normally that wouldn’t be a bad thing per say in a character, the way she is in the comics, and we see in the movie… Is not a hero you want to be around. She’s absolute in her belief that what she does it right. And because of this she becomes horrifying. Willing to “Use” and “Enslave” men… In one story arc, she finds a man who can see the future, he has visions of possible futures… So she decides he needs to be used… essentially locked up and made to tell her everything. When he tells her he see’s Miles Moralis killing Captain America… She takes it on herself to “bring” a child to justice for a crime he may or may not commit years in the future… Even if it means KILLING the child.
No… Not the type of Hero I like there. Give me Squirrel Girl any day
To me, she’s a real character with strengths and flaws. I also didn’t like how she was written in the Civil War II story, but I liked Kelly Sue DeConnick’s earlier run, as well as the Life of Captain Marvel miniseries by Margaret Stohl and the A-Force series and current CM comics by Kelly Thompson — stories that explore her relationships with other heroes and friends, and her family history. As with some of my other favorites like Wonder Woman, I just learn to follow the stories by writers whom I think write the character well, and skip the rest. :-)
And the movies aren’t the comics. Movie Carol isn’t the same as Civil War II Carol, any more than Movie Steve is the same as Secret Empire Hydra Fascist Steve. As for her “belief that what she does is right,” the movie shows how it’s an admirable quality AS WELL AS a flaw, because it leads her to make incorrect assumptions about the Skrulls and treat them as enemies, with the resulting casualties. (She’s also been deceived and gaslit by her Kree team all this time, remember.) But the movie also shows her learning from that, and regretting her mistakes. “I’m sorry, I didn’t know,” she tells Talos, who says “This is war; my hands are filthy too.” To me that’s real character development, not just cardboard symbolism.
I like Squirrel Girl too. But if you want to talk about feminist “girl power,” let’s remember that Squirrel Girl defeated Doctor Doom, Galactus, and Thanos. :-)
Marvel Rising: Secret Warriors. Squirrel girls speech “I already know people think i’m a joke, but thats never really mattered, Because i’ve had 2 best friends in my corner and thats all i really needed. Now one of them is gone… So go ahead, make fun of me, call me a joke, as long as in the end, you pick up your shield and follow me.”
that speech always makes me cry… its so impactful, so real… so relatable… I love everything about that animated move. Even the music… the Song “watch me rise”, is all about living in a narcissistic relationship…
You used to say I was nothing, wasn’t worth it
Made me believe that my love for you was counterfeit
Words cut deep, they brought me to my knees
You took my world and you tore
It into pieces, thought you were it and I could never leave this
But I found the strength inside of me
They give us that in the cartoon and… Just a girl… in the movie..
Thats how to do “girl power” without being preachy…
Please provide examples from the Captain Marvel film that are “preachy.”
So, the song lyrics you quote are about being beaten down and brought to your knees and made to feel unworthy, but finding the strength to stand up for yourself and recognize your own value.
Kind of like this?
And also kind of like this?
I get it, you’re a big Squirrel Girl fan. Good for you — she’s great! You find her inspiring and relatable, just as a lot of other people find Captain Marvel inspiring and relatable. I don’t feel a need to pit two awesome female heroes against each other. Why do you?
You’re talking (apparently) about the comics. The things you mention here have nothing to do with the movie.
What does that even mean? Where in the film does she organize a march, protest in front of Congress, write a book about feminism, or doing ANYTHING AT ALL that is about promoting feminism? She’s… just being herself. Is a woman being herself somehow objectionable?
As i said, thats the route marvel is taking with her in the comics now, Organizing marches, speaking out in public, etc…
Its somewhat off putting for her. But at the same time I don’t mind that in Wonder Woman… In her case she’s trying to overcome the prejudice and hatred.. For Wonderwoman its played as being a flaw. Something she has to remember when she’s dealing when men.
Scenes in the “Animated films” Where WonderWoman Disarms a group of rebels who were using women as sex slaves, free’s the women, and lets them take revenge letting the woman murder all the men with their own guns… and calling it justice.. That is objectionable.. I can 100% understand where she’s coming from… But at the same time, the murder of prisoners without trial… Even those that didn’t partake in the rape but just stood by and let it happen… “They were just men after all.”
But in the movies case, Something as simple as her training. Hand to hand, no energy blasts, you learn a lot from even losing, you learn what works, what doesn’t work. You learn you to adapt, an think on your feet. Her losing and blasting him, shows pettiness that’s very objectionable and… Jarring… It means and show more to have her lose, and keep losing, and keep picking herself up and trying again, trying different things.. even if she never can win in hand to hand, to keep trying.
Which comics title does she do this in? And what does this have to do with the movie?
It shows she has a temper. It’s a flaw and it makes her human. I thought you said she was like Superman and was unrelatable because she didn’t have any flaws. Being occasionally petty and having a temper makes a character relatable. Luke Skywalker was pretty angry and impatient in his training with Yoda as well. Does that make him an objectionable hero?
And remember, in the film Yon-Rogg is a secret bad guy who’s training her so that she can fight well, but under his control and on his terms. That’s what she rejects in the end, and even in this early training scene, she’s showing that she’s resistant to that.
You think the way Wonder Woman deals with men in the movie is depicted as a flaw?!
Okay, so why are you complaining about this in relation to the movie?
I’m extremely confused about what you’re trying to say and what problems you have with this movie and with my review.
Wonderomans amazonian nature, is something she strives to overcome when dealing with males… she also strives to learn more about the “human/male” world. That is character growth, that is her trying to work through a flaw… being taught that all males are weak, useless, corrupt, warmongerers…
Glad you called out the “whiny crybabies” at the start. That a movie was not made ‘just for them’ is something they will have to live with. Or not. But I sure don’t have to listen to their pathetic juvenile rants.
i actually saw a remark in a sort of review that said Akira is an example of what a “woman” should be, and to skip this anti-male horrorshow and go watch Akira!
You mean Alita?
yes. thanks.
That seems t be a thing they’re trying to engineer- Alita vs. Marvel. Because she’s more submissive, I guess? Or maybe just because they hate Brie Larson.
They hate Brie Larson, and also while there are some similarities between Alita and Vers — like the amnesia about her past life — Vers is most definitely NOT a “born sexy yesterday” character. Alita strokes men’s egos; Vers does not.
Lol… Alita submissive… oh my.
In the movie, Alita literally hands her heart to a boy. So, yeah, pretty submissive.
a boy she could crush with her bare hands moron. You can find literally thousands of movies where men are head over heels for women. Its called romance. You people are sick.
I don’t think you know what romance is.
Get back to me after you hit puberty and we’ll discuss romance.
Um… a lack of physical strength and submissiveness are not the same thing. At all.
Nope. Not. At. All.
*remembers one very large and muscle-bound person on his knees one evening*
I always love the cryptic hints to your personal history, LaSargenta! :-)
;-)
Ah yes, because removing a kidney for your boyfriend to get a nice condo is totally normal.
I get what you’re saying about movies “just for them,” but if women are able to empathize with male protagonists — which we clearly are — then men should be able to empathize with female protagonists and enjoy movies about women.
What’s so funny is that, at least as far as I have seen, tween and under boys are LOVING the movie, in utter defiance of the commonly held notion that boys won’t watch/read anything with a female protagonist (because, you know, no boys went to see The Little Mermaid, and no men went to see Alien). I know the boy my daughter invited to come see it with us loved it.
In fact, audiences for Captain Marvel have been slightly majority male. So whiny fanboys can thank their fellow men for contributing to the box office haul. :-)
That actually makes me happy. My daughter invited a boy from her class to come see it with us, and he was delighted. So much for the idea that boys won’t watch things with female protagonist.
The movie it seems by the comments here, was made for those interested in identity politics with a side of superhero… not vice-versa.
Aww, it’s cute that you don’t think that movies that center white men and that are made by white men — you know, the vast majority of movies — *aren’t* about identity politics.
Racist
Nope
Pointing out that white men have racial identity is racist?
An interesting notion that only proves the point that too many people believe that “white man” really IS the default, neutral human.
The world must be very confusing for you recently.
Just keep furthering the divide dickhead. You are really doing wonders.
Hey, take your BS elsewhere. You’re not engaging in a constructive debate, but being pissy and argumentative because MAJ called you out on your bullshit.
Why are you talking to yourself?
It’s always interesting to me that the people who argue for equality are accused of “furthering the divide,” whereas those who seem happy to maintain white straight Christian male supremacy view themselves as on the side of “unity.” As if “unity” achieved by oppression is a GOOD thing.
So sporting the majority race of America, in a movie made and based in almost always America, is identity politics? I guess most Nigerian movies centering Africans are also identity politics by that logic.
Also, @Lucy Gillam:disqus it depends on what sort of people fighting for equality you mean. I’ll presume you mean equality by sex. Think about how feminists (first wave) went from proposing actual equality, equal pay wages, rights and freedoms to well… third wave which sums up to identity politics.
– As a final note, yes, “white man” IS the default by logic, considering “whites” (Americans, Europeans, maybe Hispanics) are the majority race, and men slightly outnumber women.
Yes. You’re thisclose to understanding!
Ah yes, so logical, so reasonable.
You’re not the first one here to forget that “white people” doesn’t just mean “white MEN.” As I told the previous commenter, white MEN are only 36% of the US population. But they are overwhelmingly the focus of our stories, leaving white WOMEN (as well as men and women of other ethnic communities) with disproportionately fewer stories about their experiences and perspectives.
Nonsense. Again, if you’re talking about the US population, white men are a minority. If you’re talking about the WORLD population, white men are even MORE in the minority. Even if you assume the populations of the US, Europe, and Latin America are all white (which they AREN’T), they only add up to 1.5 billion (and MEN would just be half of that). China and India combined make up 2.6 billion people, and that’s BEFORE counting the rest of Asia, Africa, and the Middle East. White men simply aren’t the majority in any scenario here, no matter how much you wish they were.
Sorry, but I’ll take my certified source over your previous comment.
https://www.usapopulation.org/
And no, I’m referring to America. Sorry for not making it clear, but I’m referring to European and Hispanic Americans for what I had said earlier. Also it makes virtually no sense that “whites” are a minority in a country they started up. (Native Americans had their own governments, so for this instance don’t count), even more so when a lot of the immigrants coming here… were also “white” (take Irish and Italians). Also, you blow my comment out of proportion by thinking I mistake white people for white men, where did I ever do that? I simply said “whites” (now clarified, in America) are the majority race, and men slightly outnumber women in numbers so by logic they are default. And no, I actually don’t wish whites to be a majority in this world, that would just give people like yourself who prioritize race and sex in a character simply for “representation” when you’re studying a country(ies) disproportionately white instead of probably looking to other countries such as India or Nigeria where they are both also massive submitters of content (you said yourself, India is shared with China to be 2.6 Billion, over total outweights USA’s 300 million by 8.6 to 1, definitely more Indians there.) and are recognized well enough to even earn the nicknames “Bollywood” and “Nollywood.” Besides, as a person practicing my writing, I can say I’ve found it much more easier to write up “white” and Hispanic characters, simply because that is what I know and identify with. I am not forced to make African characters entirely proportional or even at all, although if I feel like it I’ll obviously do it. The same applies to people writing these stories, by census white people are the most common screenwriters. (Hell, I won’t even attach a found statistic, I’ll just go with whats being said here). They aren’t forced to make YOUR ideal proportion of racial protagonists true, “no matter how much you wish they were.”
From your link: “According to US Census, the makeup of ethnic groups are: white 79.96%”
According to the actual US Census website, that figure is lower, 76.6%. But fine, let’s go with yours. So white men would be half of that, 39%. Which means 61% of the US is not white men. By your logic, 61% of stories set in the US should not be about white men.
Again according to the US Census site, women are 50.8%, so you’re wrong. But okay, let’s go with your logic and make women the default, since they outnumber men.
Does it also make no sense that the NBA is majority black, even though it was all-white when it started? We’re talking about the country TODAY, which is racially diverse no matter how it started centuries ago (and it already WAS diverse centuries ago, since I recall there seemed to be quite a few Africans who were “asked” to “help out” in starting the nation).
You were responding to MaryAnn’s comment where she was talking about movies centering WHITE MEN, i.e. not enough movies focusing on WOMEN. Your response didn’t acknowledge this and just talked about race, which gave the impression you thought stories about white WOMEN didn’t matter.
And that’s also a problem. You don’t think there are structural and systemic barriers to nonwhite people trying to break into Hollywood and write and direct films? That’s a whole other can of worms, buddy.
Also, when doing research for another discussion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ty4iLTAJ5k
You need only watch 1 minute to see that Jordan Peele agrees with me. And as a director, I presume his opinion on this stance to be informed.
And of course you’re ignoring the context here. Committing to consciously increasing the representation of underrepresented groups is not the same as complacently perpetuating the overrepresentation of already-dominant groups.
Your link does not demonstrate that white men are any kind of majority. Why not just fuck off now and save yourself the hassle of having your mind expanded?
Yeah, I’m done with him. He’s either a troll or completely uninterested in learning, and neither is worth my time.
*sigh* I need to learn to realize that faster.
Because I like having my mind expanded and learning. It keeps me sharp and gives me enough intellegence to realize you didn’t read below what was first loaded into the page.
“According to US Census, the makeup of ethnic groups are: white 79.96%, black 12.85%, Asian 4.43%, Amerindian and Alaska native 0.97%, native Hawaiian and other Pacific islander 0.18%, two or more races 1.61%”
It’s a secondhand source but if you had truly read it, your comment would have had to be debunking it rather than merely making a counter-statement with no backup.
Women outnumber men, actually, both in the U.S. and worldwide. Which would have taken you a 15-second google search to learn. And there is no reason for there to be any “default” person.
I agree there is no need for a “default” person, but since it is mentioned, I’ve already stated how if anything a “white” would fall under that category. And I will admit my mistake there, I found a more credible source indicating women slightly out-number men.
…But the whole POINT is that there shouldn’t BE one race that is a “default” person (an “unmarked form,” as we call it in linguistics), so why argue of what it would be if we had one?
That’s exactly my question for some of the comments here. Why are we bothering discussing why “oh my white male default character that big bad” when you can rather discuss how you can tear apart the fact that there is a default in the first place, no matter what race, sex or even age falls under it.
But we have one, unfortunately. Our culture considers straight white cis hetero able-bodied men the “default,” the neutral. This is what we are pushing back against.
The current method of calling people manbabies and constantly commenting on those “white dudes” is like pushing against a current. Actually rationally discussing why there is this default or taking it up in a non-heated way with people who can make the change sooner than you can publish, is equivalent to changing the river flow.
Oh, so we’re tone-policing now.
Oh, so we’re lacking a better solution now. Tone is a fact of life, and it influences how you accept responses. If I shouted at you now instead of discussed, would you be commenting the exact same as you are now? Now I have to buy a pair of sirens.
Random_Commenter has now been banned and so won’t be replying to this, but for anyone else considering taking up his torch: This is called tone policing. This is called mansplaining. Men do not get to tell women how best to do feminism, or POC how best to push back against racism. And telling us to be nicer is an excellent way to fire up our rage.
An “average” human would probably be a brown woman.
Pssst: There’s no such thing as an apolitical story. Stories that uphold the status quo (white men as the focal point and primary movers, anyone else as supporters or antagonists) is just as political as a movie that challenges it.
Nah. You are wrong, but keep pushing your agenda. When you take source material and then focus on gender and ethnicity changes, you are making it about identity as opposed to making a movie about thr source material.
Since 2012, in the SOURCE MATERIAL, Captain Marvel has been a white woman. So I’m glad you don’t have a problem with this movie.
But if you think changing the gender/ethnicity from the source material is an unacceptable agenda, then I’m sure you also have a problem with these movies:
– Doctor Strange (the Ancient One changed from an Asian man to a white woman)
– Ghost in the Shell (Japanese character played by Scarlett Johansson)
– The Last Airbender (Asian/brown-skinned characters played by white actors)
– Wonder Woman (Doctor Poison, an Asian woman in the comics, played by a Spanish actress in the film)
– Edge of Tomorrow (Tom Cruise playing Keiji Kiriya from the original Japanese novel and manga)
– Prince of Persia (Jake Gyllenhaal and Gemma Arterton playing Middle Eastern characters)
– 21 (real-life Asian men played by Jim Sturgess and other white actors)
– Argo (real-life Mexican-American played by Ben Affleck)
– 30 Days of Night (Josh Hartnett playing Inuit character from the graphic novel)
– Pay It Forward (Kevin Spacey playing African American character from the book)
– Death Note (white actors playing Japanese characters from the manga)
And many others. Or is the agenda more acceptable to you when it’s in favor of white people playing everything?
Im glad you also mentioned source material.
Google is only as useful as the person using it.
The source material has Carol Danvers obtainjng her powers due to the original Captain Marvel as opposed to one of the infinity stones, furthermore they erased near on 50 years of source material as part of this, including the relationship of the original Captain Marvel with Thanos, The Avengers, Yon Rogg… etc… all to remove the original Captain Marvel who she spent near 50 years with in the comics.
This is why I know pretty confidently that you are either replying based on a script or via a basic web search to try and add meat to the bones of your argument.
Your copy paste list also smacks of a script, that i expect you use elsewhere as agenda spreading is easier from a script.
Carol Danvers was explicitly feminist in the early issues of the Ms. Marvel solo title, when she was editing a women’s magazine connected to the Daily Bugle. But the character has been rebooted so many times, and there have been so many different characters named Captain Marvel, that no movie could be faithful to all of them. The filmmakers chose to focus on the comics published over the past seven years, which have been popular with many readers. If you, personally, have an attachment to the Mar-Vell character, or an aversion to equality, then this movie is likely to disappoint you, but that’s a reflection of your taste and your agenda, not a flaw in the movie.
You’re changing the subject. Your previous comment complained about films changing the GENDER AND ETHNICITY of the source material, which is what I was responding to.
And you’re trying a distraction about my list being “copy paste” (it isn’t) instead of answering my question. Do you have a problem with any of the films I listed because they changed the ETHNICITY from the source material, so that non-white characters could be played by white actors? Because if you didn’t notice the changes or didn’t care, that means you actually DON’T have a problem with movies changing the source material. You just don’t like it when it means you have to look at more non-white faces onscreen. And that’s an agenda too.
EVERY movie changes source material to fit the story it’s trying to tell. Were you mad that The Dark Knight Rises erased the origin and entire history of Robin? If you weren’t mad, then your argument is hypocritical. If you WERE mad, then that’s YOUR problem, not the problem of the movie’s self-contained story.
Super hero comic books are typically works of fantasy. scifi, and/or horror, genres which are built around big “what if?” questions. There have been alternate universe scenarios in comics for longer than you’ve been alive, so answering the question, “what if the main character was a different race or gender?” is in keeping with the spirit of comics. The fact that this question was not being asked more often in mainstream works of fiction is the anomaly that should confuse and anger you.
When the gender/ethnicity of a main character changes in well executed fiction, the decision to make the change may be political in part (it’s typically financial), but the focus on the change does not occur because of politics, but because in order to tell a realistic, relatable story about this different character, those aspects are going to appear naturally. Society does not treat or value Miles Morales or Kamala Khan the same way they treat/value Peter Parker or Carol Danvers. Completely glossing over their identity would be a political act.
How those stories are told is a whole separate issue – you won’t know how well that’s been done in Captain Marvel until you watch the movie. If author-inserts didactically beat you over the head with their politics, Ayn Rand style, then sure, it can be annoying and unpleasant. If you want to argue that a specific instance of changed gender/ethnicity was executed poorly and provide specific examples and possible improvements, that’s fair game, although even when done poorly, the mistakes can be interesting.
For example, it’s interesting that Wanda Wilson has a full head of luxurious hair, minor facial scarring that sometimes disappears completely, a “family” of sidekicks, and a comically desperate preoccupation with finding and having sex with a boyfriend while Wade has almost no hair, a face and body that look like a charred testicle, frequent solo adventures, and lengthy, tragic romantic subplots on top of his nonchalant badassery.
Those differences tell you something about what the authors/publishers thought makes male and female comic book characters appealing, and what society values in men and women. If Lady Deadpool had been as hairless and hideously scarred as Wade, her gender would have been made an issue by multiple male characters in the story, and it wouldn’t have been politically motivated at that point, just realistic story telling.
Carol Danvers was a pilot in the military in the 90’s. I talk to military pilots everyday at work. It’s getting better, but gender is still an issue. Hell, there are wealthy countries where driving while female can still get you thrown in prison and tortured/raped. Captain Marvel makes a very minimal effort to address sexism among pilots and in the military in general. Ignoring these realities just so people can pretend identity doesn’t matter would not only have been bad story telling, it would have been incredibly, obnoxiously, unavoidably political.
The world is changing and you feel like everything you love is going to be replaced, but men are not allowed to express fear, certainly not fear of women, so that fear is expressed as anger and arrogance. If you weren’t afraid, you wouldn’t be here, and this one silly comic book movie wouldn’t bother you in the slightest. Don’t worry, everything the source material you love will still be here – you just might not be the center of attention 90% of the time anymore, it’ll probably hit around 65-70% in your lifetime max. It’s gonna be okay my dude.
Well, you’ve convinced me! I’ll be taking my daughter for our third viewing, and a friend will be coming for her (much-anticipated) first. I’ll think of you during the annoying commercials that come before the movie!
Where did I say that you shouldnt go?
If identity politics is your thing then you should watch it.
For those who are into the actual story and history of Marvel it is an entirely different matter.
Id personally go see lego movie 2, three times with children.
Whiny gatekeeping nonsense.
You think *Lego Movie 2* isn’t informed by identity politics?
Hilarious.
Honestly, I think that whole, “you are not the (primary) audience for this” thing never even crosses their minds. I mean, it’s not a rom-com or 50 Shades of Gray! It’s a superhero! Of course it must be for them! Girls aren’t into superheroes!
(The number of men who have explained to me that girls and women aren’t really into superheroes, as I sit next to my shelf of Batfamily trades, is almost funny, albeit not as funny as the men explaining the Punisher to Gail Simone on Twitter.)
The whole thing reminds me of the British critic who whined that Wonder Woman was so absent the male gaze that there was no way for him to “slobber” over Diana or the other Amazons.
Heh. Then he must’ve hated Captain Marvel with all those jumpsuits and full-body uniforms (which never seems to be a cause for complaint regarding Superman, Batman, Iron Man, Spider-Man…).
i really loved how the “origin” story comes in *after* we’re thrown into the action and have a stake in Vers and what happens to her. i loved this even more than WonderWoman (and i loved WW)… plenty of humor and little gifties to MCU fans… but mostly now i realized what i loved about Captain Marvel/Carol Danvers/Vers… she is, as you say, *outside* of all the gender roles bullshit… its not even a conscious attitude… she just never has internalized all that nonsense. cannot wait to see it again.
Saw this movie with my girlfriend, we liked it but we both found it underwhelming. Most of that has to do with our ability to relate with the main character, Brie Larson is mostly just stoic, I felt like they needed to give her backstory more room to breathe instead of trunkating it in brief flashes. The whole montage of her getting knocked down and picking herself up again would’ve had more impact if we had actually experienced her oppression firsthand with her. As it is it kinda feels too on the nose, too much about a vague idea of “justice” or “overcoming” from a female perspective. People relate to concrete narratives and situations, they don’t relate to vague ideas. I love underdog stories but you have to earn your pathos. If there’s a backlash to this movie it’s definitely because people want substance first and social justice second. The viewpoint that most purely represents feminism is to NOT judge a movie based on how well it represents the interests of one gender, but by how well made it is.
People will have different subjective responses to movies. MaryAnn and others have no problem relating to Carol Danvers, whereas you struggled with it. And it’s fine to argue over how well-made a movie is. But there have been plenty of Marvel movies that are considered “middling” or “likable but underwhelming” by general consensus — the Ant-Man movies or the first Thor movies or Doctor Strange, for instance. Fanboys were able to calmly discuss those films’ merits and flaws and shrug and move on if the films didn’t move them; they didn’t feel a need to organize Internet campaigns to flood Rotten Tomatoes with preemptive negative reviews. That’s not the case here. The specific backlash against Captain Marvel isn’t about how tight the script is or how well-written the characters are or how effective the editing is — it’s about the fact that it’s centered on a woman.
Well, that’s really rude, and it’s too bad this movie can’t just exist in a vacuum. After two solid decades of seeing women headline franchises like resident evil, underworld, and ultraviolet, and wonder woman (also, the terminator and aliens if you reach back a bit farther) it kinda feels like we should be past this.
Sadly, we aren’t. You mentioned a handful of films and franchises (and you had to dig deep for decades-old examples even for just this handful) — I guarantee that no matter how many female-led films you list, it won’t even come CLOSE to parity with all the action movies featuring men. It’ll take a LOT more female-led action films before society gets used to women taking up the center of these kinds of stories.
Even some of the examples you mentioned still pander to men. Ultraviolet and the Underworld films still invite the male gaze, and the first Terminator has Sarah Connor clinging fearfully to her male protector for most of the film, becoming braver and more self-reliant only after she loses him. (Oh yeah, and there’s Linda Hamilton’s topless sex scene.) Even the amazing Wonder Woman can’t quite dispense with the idea that a gal has to have a love interest. No wonder sexist dudes are relatively okay with these movies — they’re reassured that the movie is still thinking of their pleasure, and that they’re still important. Captain Marvel doesn’t bother with any of that, which I suspect is driving the troll army even crazier than usual.
This movie does not exist in a vacuum, and the vast majority of movies are still about white men and made by white men.
We are not “past this.”
racist
Nah
You can keep saying this — although, don’t, because you’re about to get banned — but it won’t make it true.
Racist, sexist, pile of shit. Think I give a damn about your hateful site? Ban away sweetheart.
I don’t know why you think we needed you to describe yourself, but okay. *shrug*
If you don’t care….why are you here? You know, when I don’t care, I expend no effort doing something, as opposed to making multiple comments, which requires some effort. Not caring and walking away does wonders for time management, and blood pressure, and I suggest everyone (you) try it.
it kinda feels like we should be past this.
Here’s a little experiment. Go look at how many movies Pixar has made with female protagonists. And I mean protagonists, not, “Well, she was only in the first fifteen minutes and had five lines, but she was awesome.”
Lots of male protagonists are stoic. Does it bother you when they are like that?
So, like… most women HAVE experienced some of what Vers goes through, if only metaphorically. Just like many men will probably have experienced some of what Steve Rogers goes through (certainly pre serum).
Again, also: This is true of Steve Rogers, is it not?
I feel like what your idea of “vague” is may be different from that of many women.
ONCE MORE: Have you ever thought this about a movie about men? Have you ever considered that a movie about a man is representing the interests of one gender only?
Have you ever thought about the fact that our culture considers the experiences of men — and particularly straight white cishet men — universal? Have you ever considered that, somehow, people who are not straight white cishet men somehow do manage to empathize with protagonists who are straight white cishet men? Is it within your purview to extend the same courtesy to a protagonist who is a woman?
“[Women are] really good at cross-identifying because we’ve had to be. I don’t think that I viscerally understood what I didn’t have until I had it. When women and girls watch Harry Potter, we’re not like, ‘I’m Hermione.’ Maybe a couple of people are. You’re identifying with Harry because he’s the hero. He’s the protagonist. And we’re very good at cross-identifying because we’ve always had to, and that’s doubly so for marginalized communities? I’m a white girl, I’ve had more options than most, but it’s still a thing.
None of us have trouble seeing ourselves reflected in white men because we’ve always been told that, that is the default. That’s the default human being and you can cross-identify. And because of that, we are always centering their pain and their comfort. That’s basic humanity. That’s how we’ve been taught to do it.
When we see authentic culture reflecting back at us, we realize that heroism is not exclusively the domain of masculinity. There’s nothing inherently masculine about power, or sacrifice, or the power fantasy, or about the sci-fi aesthetic or about the ethical ideals of these superheroes. When you actually see, what you didn’t quite let yourself realize you were missing, it is a shockingly emotional experience.”
— Kelly Sue DeConnick, Captain Marvel writer, in THR
Holy shit, MaryAnn! Incredible review.
[SPOILERS from here on]
Here’s an additional pleasure, for those familiar with the comics: Mar-Vell (played by Annette Bening) was originally a man, the first Captain Marvel who transfers his powers to Carol when he shields her from an energy blast. The film is having none of that. Carol is not defined as the lesser female version of a male superhero; she isn’t bestowed her powers or her mantle by a man — she gets her powers through the results of her own actions (choosing to destroy the space-engine) and chooses to adopt the mission of her female mentor (“not to fight wars, but to end them”).
In fact it’s THREE generations of women inspiring each other — Mar-Vell the mentor, Carol the hero, and Monica the girl-in-waiting (she’s pretty important in the comics too). The film doesn’t hate on men — it’s pretty clear Carol has some awesome male allies in Fury and Coulson — but her central relationships are with women providing inspiration, friendship and support. And that’s so sadly rare but also so damn refreshing to see onscreen.
I also love the film’s sly political message: What may LOOK like an invasion of sneaky aliens may actually be an exodus of refugees fleeing persecution and extermination. Let’s check our moral compasses and act accordingly.
And I love that the MCU is steadily planting the seeds for its own future, and that the future looks diverse: Miles Morales (referenced in Spider-Man: Homecoming), Cassie Lang (Scott Lang’s daughter in Ant-Man), and now Monica Rambeau are almost certainly going to grow up and do some superheroing of their own. Bring in, hopefully, America Chavez, Kate Bishop’s Hawkeye, Riri Williams’ Ironheart, and Kamala Khan’s Ms Marvel, and the future looks bright indeed. I can’t wait.
This movie is great on its own and doesn’t need comparisons to its source material to boost it. But for those who ARE curious about the comics, I highly encourage you to seek out Kelly Sue DeConnick’s run — here, here, and here. Her version of Carol is the strongest influence on the film, and her badass unapologetic feminism is on display in her interviews and her other works as well (particularly Bitch Planet, as I keep recommending).
SPOILERS!!
…
…
This was such a huge part of the movie for me, that it asked me to reconsider my biases — which are possibly biologically ingrained but which have most definitely been reinforced by pop culture — about nonmammalian species, *certainly* (if nothing else) within the context of sci-fi. Reptiles are ALWAYS villains, and even here, even after we had gotten the truth about the Skrulls and the “threat” they present, I was still all like “Don’t trust the lizards!” (I was wrong to think that, and I’m sure this is part of the movie’s plan.) As with how things were for Danvers, this was uncomfortable for me. But I learned to deal with it.
SPOILER
Interestingly, the character that my kid was CONSTANTLY suspicious of, and never fully trusted, was — the cat. (And we’re cat people!)
Nick Fury trusted the cat. And now his little snippet of dialogue in Captain America: Winter Soldier makes hilarious sense.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydKKQ3jmOWE
“I also love the film’s sly political message: What may LOOK like an invasion of sneaky aliens may actually be an exodus of refugees fleeing persecution and extermination.”
Ah, a political message. Well then, on the basis that films can be inspired by real-life, will they show that such refugees, even when genuine (or at least regarded as genuine), can in the end really be an actual threat. We know that from real-life.
There’s 15 year old Danish girl Lisa Borch, who it seems was influenced by an Iraqi refugee friend/boyfriend that turned out to be an Islamist fanatic to murder her own mother: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/denmark/11867138/Danish-teenage-girl-stabbed-mother-to-death-after-watching-Isil-videos-with-Islamist-boyfriend.html
There’s Iranian Man Haron Monis who fled to Australia claiming political asylum. Iran, for what it’s worth, warned Australia that Monis was not a political refugee but a wanted criminal. Australia though, decided to listen Monis’s asylum claim and let him in…..and he would eventually mount the Sydney Lindt Cafe siege:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_Haron_Monis
Top prize though should go to Ahmad Hassan. He arrived in Britain as a 16 year old in 2015 claiming refuge. Incredibly, he openly told the British immigration authorities that he was trained by Islamic State (yes, that Islamic State) to kill. And what did the British authorities do after receiving this information? Why they let him in and found accommodation for him, probably thinking he was just a poor desperate fellow wanting to get away from it all. Having thus secure some lodgings, Ahmed then went on to bomb the Parsons Green train station:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-43392551
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/16/parsons-green-tube-bomber-convicted-of-attempted-murder
Would Marvel and/or some other major franchise introduce such a theme:
Aliens arrive. Most people are worried.
Twist; aliens are actually refugees feeling persecution and extermination. Most people then become welcoming and accepting.
Further twist; despite being genuine refugees, they are also genuine deadly killers who take advantage of the people’s welcome and eventually kill them.
Anyone can be a threat. But you can take your anti-Islamic shit elsewhere. Fuck right the fuck off with it. And don’t come back.
How is RMW anti-Islam, at all? The literal closest answer you can get from this, is that all 3 examples are Islamic, but perhaps maybe that’s whats most known to him, or in media in general? Yes, anybody can be a threat, but it’s a terribly lame comeback to assume he’s anti-Islamic just because of the sources. Speaking of sources… only one of them mentioned directly to be Islamic, one wasn’t even said to be Islam AT ALL other than by regional guess, and the third was trained by ISIS – an organization with Islamic LAW, not necessarily pinpointing to the examples religion. How then can an anti-Islamic, NOT point out all three as violent Islamic terrorists, in the very least as that. I guess this is the most civil Islamophobic I’ve ever seen.
This site is not Progressiveness 101, Feminism 101, Freethinking 101, or any other kind of primer. We are NOT here to educate you, but I’ll tell you this for free: “Civility” is a mask that has been used to justify the most outrageous hatred and bigotry in history.
Your Islamophobia is noted. And as MaryAnn has said, it’s not welcome here. But I’ll humor you with a reply:
Did you see the film? There are two groups of aliens who come to Earth: One group is believed to be invaders but turn out to be refugees, while the other is believed to be do-gooders but turn out to have lied about their mission. Over the course of the film, the hero learns to see through misperceptions and deceptions, and gives one group the compassion and aid it deserves while fighting the other group that deserves to be fought. Which is what we should be doing in the real world: learning to MAKE DISTINCTIONS instead of sweeping negative assumptions about groups based on religion or ethnicity or refugee status.
As for your examples: Congratulations on cherry-picking three bad apples from an immigrant/refugee population that is OVERWHELMINGLY peaceful and law-abiding. And your examples merely show that some nations need to have better SCREENING, not that genuine refugees don’t deserve to be taken in. (Further note: better screening does not mean INHUMANE screening. We can process applicants for asylum and treat them like human beings the entire time, whether we accept them or turn them away. If you start arguing that ripping kids away from parents at the southern US border is necessary for our security, I’ll have nothing more to say to you.)
So! I’ve now seen the film a second time. I was half-expecting that maybe the criticisms I’ve been reading about Larson’s acting, the plot, etc, would register with me, and that maybe I’d like the film a little less. Nope! Loved it MORE, thought the storytelling choices were solid, appreciated more of the nuances, thought Larson was great. The “stoic” and “flat” criticisms are nonsense. She smiles and laughs A LOT in this film — just not when douchebag motorcyclists (or whiny fanboys) tell her to, and not when there’s serious business to take care of; but she’s cheerful with Fury and Maria and especially “Lt. Trouble” Monica, and she whoops for joy when she flies. As MAJ’s review points out, it’s rare to see a woman occupy this specific kind of headspace that we’re used to seeing male heroes inhabit all the time — grim when needed, cocky when needed, smiling when needed, stubborn and self-assured and unburdened by the world’s sexism — and I suspect that dissonance is causing some folks to question and overly scrutinize her acting when it’s really just the NEWNESS of the character that’s throwing them. I think Larson as Carol is perfect. YMMV.
Carol staring down Ronan the Accuser, smashing her fist into her palm as she glows white-hot? Awesome. Carol floating above Earth in her bomber jacket, smiling down on the planet before leading the refugees to search for their new home? Powerfully moving Christopher-Reeve-worthy moment. Monica looking up at Carol’s flight trail with admiration in her shining eyes? Fantastic, and a hint of the future.
And! There was a little girl behind me in the theater, and when we got to the “I have nothing to prove to you” scene, she straight-up CACKLED with glee for maybe a full minute. That alone was worth the price of the ticket.
AND! Elsewhere in my original comment, I said this:
AND HOT DAMN CHECK OUT 0:37 IN THE AVENGERS ENDGAME TRAILER.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcMBFSGVi1c
It may not be her. But I live in hope. :-)
I’m pretty sure that scene is in there just for Hawkeye/Ronin to loose
(part of?) his family. Whether that scene will pan out into more for future movies we’ll have to see.
Probably only Kevin Feige knows
Yeah, probably. I also think if his daughter winds up being movie-Kate I’ll be annoyed, since Kate is a completely different person with a completely different relationship with Clint. But we’ll see.
lol. 5 stars? Wow…you are clearly objective. Putting aside all the drama, this was a mediocre film at best. Mary Sue protagonist who faces no real obstacle, has no weakness and has basically no character arc. You should try to be bit more honest in your reviews. This a B- to C+ film at best. Certainly not 5 stars. Additionally, Brie Larson does not have the charisma required to carry a movie like this. She’s very wooden. She was miscast. Also, it’s a shame that they say they want to make a movie about female empowerment and then go with the most cookie-cutter, formulaic and boring plot imaginable. Why not put some effort into it? Go ahead and call me a sexist troll because I didn’t like the movie. (even though I’m very left leaning and pretty ‘woke’) I literally could not care less.
Wow, you clearly don’t understand that NO CRITIC is objective.
LOL.
Oh, dude: Tell me how Steve Rogers, Tony Stark, James Bond, etc, etc, are not Marty Stus.
Go on, tell me.
Meet Tony Stark from Iron Man 1, basically one of the worlds biggest Merchants of Death with an alcohol addiction and arrogance to rival Doctor Doom’s, at least IMO. Despite Steve Rogers being noble, he’s also self righteous and stubborn. And, hiding behind the fact that Steve Rogers might be a Marty Stu, isn’t a good argument. Much like Snoke vs. Palpatine, this falls under the Rationalization fallacy, where you basically excuse Exhibit A because the true reasons are less… fancy. You cannot rate Captain Marvel by how poorly Captain America was, and vice versa. If she was a good character, there would obviously need to be differing reasons to this. Assume you take out all the adjectives like “badass” and “empowering” or “strong,” what are you left with? That’s where the real value of the character comes.
None of this is an answer to my request.
Leftists can be sexists. Bet you’re a Bernie Bro, aren’t you.
“Your opinions are not objective, and I know that because they disagree with mine. If you were honest, you’d realize I’m right.”
Like, the things you wrote about the movie are legitimate differences of opinion, but for some reason you feel the need to claim your opinions as fact. Not a good argument.
And you would give this film a pass otherwise if Vers/Carol had a penis.
Get over yourself.
Strawman Fallacy easily, where ever is the OC proven to be a misogynist who hates Captain Marvel for being a woman? Condescending, somewhat. But suck it up buttercup, this is another persons opinion and hiding behind a generalized and unproven claim will only make you feel better instead of proving a single thing.
Random Commenter, you are clear here to stir the pot. It will not be tolerated. You are tedious and predictable and not saying a single damn thing anyone here hasn’t heard before. I suggest you take yourself elsewhere.
Terrible review.
Terrible comment.
You’re boring.
This movie was made for the nerds, because we were the ones who read up on the character. I guarantee you guys did not read comics, so fuck off acting like it isn’t for us. it was supposed to be, and you feminazis ruined it. Captain Marvel was boring and bland.
I’m not sure YOU read the comics. You don’t like that the movie is about a badass feminist ex-USAF pilot who punches holes in the sky and takes no bullshit? Too bad — that’s comics canon, dude.
And quit your pathetic whiny entitled gatekeeping. This movie was made for new fans AND comics readers. It was not made for MANBABIES. “Manbabies” does NOT equal “comics readers”; there are plenty of comics readers who love, and will love, the movie — like the women (and men) of the Carol Corps, who have been on board since at least the 2012 run of the Captain Marvel COMICS.
https://twitter.com/kickedthestairs/status/1102596506027286529
Hollywood makes movies for *everyone* (or at least it thinks it does). I guarantee you that this movie was not made solely for people who read Marvel comics.
Oh, you poor, poor thing. How tough life must be for you.
Superhero movies are not just made for comics fans. That is not nearly a big enough audience to justify a big budget film. Marvel has made it very clear in its marketing that it was explicitly aiming for women and girls, the audience that is often left out of superhero movies. It wants men and boys too, but as usual, (some) men are interpreting anything that is not explicitly all about them as oppression. Get over yourselves.
Oh, and for the record? I’m a Batfamily fan of decades standing, one who has watched movie versions be stripped of the things from the comics that appeal to women, so my sympathy meter here is nonexistent.
This is a sad review from the get go and not doing anyone any favors. This review just goes to show there are more hateful women involved in this then there are hateful men. You repeatedly insult “crybaby men” because they dont like a movie that you like? Thats what a child does. We’ve been shown with movies like wonder woman, that its very possible to have a female lead role that audiences love. Brie larson just couldnt achieve that, and people throwing tantrums like this wont change people’s minds.
When are women going to stop playing the victim card and actually be the strong females you say you are?
I was gearing up to throw a bunch of stats at you comparing cinema scores and box office results, then I realized I’d be perpetuating the kind of woman vs. woman bullshit this film is trying to rise above. There’s enough room in the world for Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel and Alita and a hundred more cheesy comic book movies with female leads. People can and should have differing opinions about them without pitting them against each other by reducing them to a number or a score or a dollar amount.
Like it or not, this is a complicated movie with a lot of moving parts. If you have ideas about how to improve it that are more substantial or interesting than “fire Brie Larson,” and/or “make it more like (insert other movie you like with female lead),” I’d love to hear them. Otherwise, you’re just wasting everyone’s time.
SPOILER ALERT
For example, my biggest suggestion would be to show Vers slowly learning techniques as she discovered her past, so that her physical and emotional/mental strength develop in parallel. If she learned/demonstrated a new ability immediately after every plot revelation, it would give the final scenes when she finally lets loose way more emotional punch. It would also humanize her if the sudden increase in power level took her by surprise and she was a bit clumsy and overwhelmed initially.
I would have had her awkwardly fly up and get struck by one of the missiles, Iron Giant style, then fall to the ground, creating a large crater when she landed. Long shot of the missiles falling toward Earth as she lies unconscious on the ground as the theme swells. Then show the getting up montage and end it with her opening her eyes, struggling to her feet once again, and going full Binary as the limiter shorts out and explodes. We needed waaaay more Ronan to care even a little but about the last special effects bawl too. As it is, there was very little emotional tension in the final fights, not even a sense of triumph or joy, just “guess what, I can use all my powers at full power and fly perfectly now.”
A lot of people have told me they thought the first hour of the movie was too slow and boring – I liked the mystery of the first act – it was the second and third act that felt like a sequence of unconnected events with no rising or falling action. If you put a slightly below average TNG episode and a slightly below average X-Files episode in a blender, then sprinkled in some (welcome) extra female characters, you’d get this, which is not a bad thing at all, I love those shows, this just never felt as cinematic, cohesive, or grand as its narrative justified.
I’m really looking forward to the sequel when Larson gets to flesh out the character, and doesn’t have to handicap herself with partial amnesia for 90% of the film. Her lines are appropriately confident here, but her body language and delivery are a little inconsistent, affected, and shaky. Since Endgame was filmed before this, I’m curious to see if she plays the role with a lot more confidence and swagger there.
Anita Sarkeesian of Feminist Frequency (someone I don’t always agree with, yet somehow don’t feel the need to send her death threats) said that constantly comparing the very few female-led big-scale SF action comic book movies was “fighting over scraps”. I’m one of those seemingly rare folks who didn’t like Captain Marvel but loved Alita: Battle Angel, for non-sexist reasons (really don’t care at all about any Marvel movies, so I’m being consistent), and I’m at pains to disassociate myself from the wretched snowflake manbabies who insist on futilely pitting these two movies against each other, as if, as you said, this is some ‘woman vs woman’ competition. (One reason I bother commenting here is to disagree in a hopefully non-toxic way. Too many people are losing the ability to disagree gracefully.) Loving one film doesn’t have to mean hating some other film. Further to your point above, and something that’s been repeatedly pointed out on Flick Filosopher, we should have not only both of these female-led movies, but an absolute shitload more of various kinds with various plots and protagonists. When that happens, maybe the anti-SJW snowflaking will stop. (Breath not being held).
At this point, 21 films in, I’m impressed you still keep going to see them, Stacy. Do you just keep hoping to be pleasantly surprised? :-)
Ah, well, I haven’t seen all of them, and this is only the third Marvel film I’ve seen in a theatre, and believe me, the only reason I went was because it has a woman in the lead (same with DC and Wonder Woman). But also, I learned an important lesson after The Last Jedi, which is to always question assumptions, as I had no intention in seeing that film, not being interested in Star Wars, but after the discordantly hyperbolic reactions I relented and saw it and instantly loved every minute of it. So, I can always be wrong. I do keep hoping to be surprised. Lots of my friends have just given up entirely on new mainstream movies, but the last few years have shown that these big studio blockbusters can sometimes still be great. But it’s not the series that matters, it’s the individual film. (Still not interested in Star Wars, I just really love Last Jedi)
Yup, I agree. When there are a couple hundred comic book action movies starring women, then sure, I’ll compare, rank, and contrast them to my heart’s content. Right now, pitting them against each other is like discovering a tiny colony of nearly extinct animals, and immediately forcing them to all fight to the death, so I’ve decided not to play the “I will prove that Wonder Woman/Captain Marvel/Alita is the best because you are stupid and here look at these numbers,” game. These filmmakers and fandoms should learn from each other, rise up, and improve together.
Gold!
I’ve been doing Double Picard facepalms every time someone knocks Captain Marvel for egregious (i.e. sexist) reasons, instead of ones based on the actual movie. Cinema privileges emotion over logic, and all I can go with is my honest response, which is that when I left the theatre I felt nothing except the deflation of having wasted my time. I’m certainly not going to lie about something just because I think there should be more things like it (movies about women).
It’s clearly only proximity of release that has conjured this useless urge to compare Alita with Marvel. Instead, how about noting how pathetically extraordinary it is that two major big-budget movies with female leads opened in the same month? A review in the Washington Post made an interesting claim, that studios are maintaining a scarcity of diverse movies to bolster the hype around each one and to maintain the burden on each such film to be huge or risk damning their validity.
“The studios are running a business, and they have found a mini-goldmine in maintaining the scarcity that leaves viewers with less diverse options. If they had really wanted to fix the diversity gaps in the industry, there would have been a top-down overhaul — including hiring more women and people of color in executive roles, or on set as producers and directors — and things would not look the way they do now, with moviegoers watching the snail’s pace of change, cheering for every inclusive title because there will only be a handful of them in a given year. The burden has been on nonwhite and non-male audiences to prove over and over again that they can sell out screenings for movies like “Black Panther” and “Crazy Rich Asians.” It is a pressure — and a selling point for the studios — that these movies have to contend with. If studios were serious, inclusion would be integral to how everything works from the very beginning, not an afterthought made by scrambling executives and producers, or some token project for communities to line up behind or risk never seeing themselves on-screen again.”
Alright, I watched it a second time and my opinion has risen slightly. Considering the complexity of the plot and the large number of characters and tie-ins, it’s been upgraded to a slightly above average MCU movie and an average episode of TNG/X-Files/Alien Nation.
SPOILER ALERT
After carefully watching the atrociously shot, edited, and scored action scenes at the end of the movie, I realized that my initial assessment was unfair. Carol does struggle clumsily with the sudden increase in her power during her fight against the Kree Starforce. She accidentally propels herself a couple times and the filmmakers try to indicate that she is coming to grips with her newfound abilities during the fight and learning to propel herself through the air.
So the fight choreography is not as awful as I first thought, it’s adequate/average for the MCU – it’s the directing and editing that destroy any flow or immersion. I think Boden and Fleck made the Starforce fight dark and confusing because they couldn’t think of an interesting way that Carol could “realistically” fight so many people simultaneously in a well lit setting. If they just pulled the camera back a little and stopped cutting so quickly, it would have been decent.
Apart from my gripes with the fights, the main issues are:
1) Vers has pretty much the same personality after learning her true identity as she does before she learns who she is.
2) The climax of the second act is a long flashback followed by a short conversation with Monica that goes roughly like this: “I don’t know who I am!” “I know you. You’re a great person, and you’re my friend!” “Oh that’s right, I remember who I am now, let’s hug!” Lynch acts her heart out, but no. No movie. You don’t get to cheat like that. Show us how learning this information gradually changes her personality.
3) As mentioned above, the standing up montage is not placed as well as it could have been. Instead of just walking into an energy beam, it would have been cooler if the gooey ropes pulled Carol back during the Supreme intelligence battle of wills. She could have struggled, eventually burned them away, the entire floor deforms to pull her down, then we finally get the desperation energy beam as she slowly wades determinedly through the nanomachine goop against the beam to the SI, gets close, does a small fist bump power wave to knock the SI down which would make the later larger one in space a lot cooler, stands up and says something intimidating/corny like, “My name is Carol Danvers… I’m ending this war… and I’m ending you!” Cut to a look of genuine fear/surprise on the SI face, it melts away, cut to the explosion as she breaks free of the goop in the real world and powers up, but not all the way yet.
Star Force, all combining their powers and abilities in interesting ways defeats her, but just barely – everyone but Yon-Rogg is injured severely. He restrains her in metal debris, Ronan shows up, does a smidge of evil monologuing, knocks her out of the ship with a single hammer blow upside the head, she’s tumbling through space, wakes up, slowly regains control and flies for the first time, we get the Iron Giant ballistic missile scene as described above ending with the standing up montage, final Binary power up and space-ship beatdown. It’s a lot more over the top and anime-ish, but that’s what this movie and this character needed to really sell its climax, which brings me to:
4) The movie doesn’t end on a high emotional note. The shot of an adoring Maria that cuts to Carol flying away is fantastic, as is the flyby of the Kree ship, but the final scene should be a perspective shot of Carol flying faster and faster towards the camera, she looks for a brief moment back towards Earth in the distance and the audience knows she’s mentally saying goodbye to Monica/Maria/Fury, then she cranks it up to make the jump to light speed and the camera rotates forward to follow her as she vanishes in a Captain Marvel Star shaped blip in the distance. Roll credits – everyone is pumped, positive, and energized in the audience.
By continuing the movie in Fury’s office and tacking on the sit-com false eye humour and Avengers origin, all the momentum and energy is killed and the film skids to a dull thud. That scene should have been mid credits or better yet, rolled into the after credits with Goose. This movie should lead gracefully into Captain Marvel 2, instead it ends feeling like an extended ad for Endgame or a catalog of Avengers trivia.
END SPOILER
That’s it, no more nitpicks and mental reshoots. Boden/Fleck and Cameron/Rodriguez should pick each other’s brains because their strengths and weaknesses complement each other. This movie wanted to have it’s cake and eat it too – to be a different kind of superhero movie that was more about character than action, but also indulge in some kick-ass action. It didn’t succeed fully on either front, but I really like that it tried, and after a second viewing, I like the result okay – I really like that there is an attempt to establish a strong female friendship and no romantic subplot in sight – I just don’t love how it all comes together.
Because she’s the same person! Amnesia doesn’t change your personality.
Is that really a problem? It IS leading into *Endgame,* after all. Mightn’t it feel weird for this to end on a high note?
Oops, I just realized I mixed up Monica’s and Maria’s names above, sorry about that. Yeah, I understand that Carol’s personality can’t logically make a complete 180 in six years and then magically revert in a few days, but I wanted something more subtle to indicate that the knowledge had changed her as a person.
SPOILER ALERT
The movie wants a big emotional payoff after the flashback, but instead of a gradual thawing and slowly increasing warmth between Carol and Maria, it’s just stated in words and the emotional arc stops after the hug, perfectly resolved. I see what they were going for – Carol is overwhelmed and confused when she discovers the truth and all her memories flood back, she’s lost for a moment, and only her true friend can pull her out of the confusion and center her by reminding her of who she truly is.
That’s cool on paper, but the way Larson played it was as if she watched the flashback like a movie and knew the information on an intellectual level, but didn’t fully regain the memories and the emotional connection to Maria – a good acting choice, but then the movie jumps suddenly to – well actually she has all her memories back and she’s super tight with Maria and Monica just like before the accident. “Oh, that’s a cheat,” I thought, “but at least now that she fully remembers herself, Larson will play the character a little differently,” but that didn’t happen either.
It felt like a mismatch – the huge reveal and Maria conversation suggested that an enormous change had occurred in her life, and Carol finally knew who she really was, but there was no corresponding change in the character’s personality. The character that says, “I have nothing to prove to you,” is the same character that fights Yon-Rogg in the first scene of the movie, personality-wise. Her actions are different, but she still feels like the same jokey, sarcastic, strong soldier who happens to be fighting for a different army now, not a woman who has discovered her true self and a sense of independence and confidence.
It probably would have worked better for me if she had been a bit more beaten down and obedient during the first fight and first act – maybe gotten really mad at herself for letting Yon Rogg down and been more subservient to the Supreme Intelligence. If her sense of humour, warmth, and swagger emerged gradually, it would have felt like she had truly discovered her identity by the end of the second act. It’s a risk because you want the audience to be able to like and identify with the character right off the bat, but I think it would have payed off better at the end. It would also be really cool to see a stereotypical, generic, colder, “Strong Female Character,” gradually turn into a more multi-faceted human being to highlight the difference between the two.
Regarding the ending, it’s the job of the mid and after credits scenes to pump people up for Endgame, and the mid credits scene does just that. A movie called Captain Marvel should stand strongly on its own – the final scene should leave the audience with a strong impression of who the character is, the journey they’ve been on, and where they’re headed. This is not an Avengers movie or a Nick Fury movie, this is establishing Captain Marvel, one of the most powerful characters in the MCU, a character that most people aren’t familiar with. The audience should see the credits roll, and think, “Wow, Captain Marvel is a bad-ass, that was great, I can’t wait to see her in another movie!” Basically I want them to feel like Monica when she looks up at Carol flying away in that fantastic shot. Instead, at the credits, the audience is thinking, “Oh, so that’s how the Avengers got their name. That’s cool I guess…” so for me, it ended on a weak note, but I can understand how a lot of hardcore MCU fans were probably invested and thrilled with the Fury scene.
END SPOILER
I have a lot more respect for how different the movie is plot-wise and how unique Carol is as a female action hero after seeing the movie a second time. I’m not a big MCU fan, but I enjoyed it overall, just didn’t love it, which seems to be the general reaction – it’s my nature to nitpick, and I really wanted Boden and Fleck to hit this one out of the park so all the trolls would by left high and dry. You wrote a great review in keeping with the strength of the character, and I’m glad you loved it. I’m looking forward to Carol in Endgame, I’m thrilled Captain Marvel is getting a sequel, and I’ll be there on opening day.
I thought that.
Judging by the box office and the movie’s Cinemascore of A, I’d say it looks like they did hit it out of the park. But nothing is going to change the mind of the trolls. They’re still insisting that *The Last Jedi* — which has earned $1.3 billion globally — is a failure.
I feel like you were looking for a more stereotypical female character than the movie is offering. Not all women are hugely openly emotional. What do you think would change about Carol once she reunites with her friend and learns about her forgotten past?
Maybe because she already knew her true self and already had a sense of independence and confidence! Her lack of memory of her past didn’t take that away, and her recovery of her memory didn’t impact that.
I agree with you that the way it played out was more realistic. I’m just used to a movie in which there is a significant internal change in the main character that accompanies the major plot points. A movie about events that happen to a character that doesn’t change could work for me if she was questioning something about herself or showed some signs of holding herself back emotionally at the beginning.
She could go from thinking, “there’s something wrong with me, why can’t I hold back my emotions and stop joking around like Yon-Rogg and the SI want me to!? I’ve got to learn to listen to them and stay calm so I can control my powers.” to “Oh, these people telling me there’s something wrong with being emotional and confident are just trying to hold me back for their own interest, actually it’s okay to just be myself, be confident and jokey, and it’s fine to express my emotions, that’s what makes me powerful! That unlocks my real potential!”
I feel as though this is the character arc the movie wanted to send Carol on by bookending with the Yon-Rogg fights, but she was a little too positive and relaxed at the front end because they also wanted her to be likable and didn’t want to give away the big twist. It’s certainly strong from a feminist standpoint to have a character stride through a movie confidently, virtually unaffected mentally or emotionally by the events around her, her massive power level increase, or her six years of brainwashing, it’s just not dramatically satisfying.
The unshakable mental and emotional strength of the movie Carol is comics accurate to the DeConnick character, and it clearly resonates with a lot of people, but I like to look at a character in the final scene, remember the first scene, and think about the emotional journey they took and the mental tests they had to overcome. When I do that here, I just think, “Well a lot of crazy stuff happened, but same old Carol, didn’t seem to phase her at all.” In a TV show, or a movie with a well known character, that’s cool, but this is the movie establishing and introducing Captain Marvel. I found out who she is, but except for a quick montage, I didn’t learn how she became who she is, and more importantly, who she is was never truly tested.
This is almost completely off topic, but some of the structure of this movie reminded me of a Disney movie from the 70’s called Escape to Witch Mountain. Those two characters never change their personalities, and I love that film – probably because I watched it as a kid so many times.
I think my fundamental problem with Captain Marvel is that I see a gap between what the filmmakers are trying to convey (or what I wanted the movie to convey, depending on your perspective) and what the film actually conveys. It has ambitions that it doesn’t fulfill.
From your perspective, the filmmakers have unique ambitions that they succeeded in fulfilling, and I am imposing my own preconceptions of what an origin story movie should be on to a movie that is intentionally trying to be something different with a different kind of character.
We could use Talos as a metaphor for the entire film. Maybe I’m trying to push Captain Marvel into a old fashioned box where it doesn’t belong, but I know how I felt when I watched it, I know how I felt when it was over, and I know that I can easily imagine an improved version of the movie that makes me feel more emotionally invested in the characters and the story.
That doesn’t happen with movies that I love, and please note that I don’t love any of the MCU origin story movies. I was pleasantly surprised by Iron Man because I had very low expectations, but it has major issues. All the others – Thor, Ant-man, Black Panther, Captain America, Doctor Strange, All the Hulk reboots, All the Spiderman origin movies, all have some good moments, but I wouldn’t voluntarily watch any of them a second time.
One of the messages of the movie is that emotions are powerful – the only time I felt any powerful emotions was during the standing montage, only during the baseball/softball scene, immediately followed by the thought, “hmm… that could have been better.” Is the movie significant? Successful? Promising? Well-needed? Entertaining? More than worthy of the MCU brand? Yes to all those, but I’m a feminist, I’m a fan of the character and of super hero comic books in general, I grew up in the 90’s, I love watching confident women kick ass in martial arts fights, this is a movie that I wanted to be swept up and blown away by, and I wasn’t. I think we just have to agree to disagree on this one.
Carol started out as a person who took for granted that she was fighting on the side of right and justice and gradually learned that she was harming large numbers of people. By the end of the movie, she was a literal Social Justice Warrior, actively trying to help displaced refugees. That’s a huge change in her personality, and one that I found moving and extremely relevant. She had to reject the entire culture she’d lived in for a significant part of her life, and fight against some of her closest friends.
It might have been satisfying, in some ways, to see Brie Larson give a more emotive performance, but most of your suggested “fixes” sound trite and derivative, and I think the changes would have led to a much worse film.
Is that a change in her *personality,* though? I wouldn’t call it that: it *underscores* her personality, as someone with integrity for whom the truth matters more than tribalism. Vers/Carol seems to me to be a primarily rational person, not one driven by emotion (which of course doesn’t mean that she doesn’t have emotions!).
I find it interesting that you keep referring to her by her Kree name, as “Vers” or “Vers/Danvers” or “Vers/Carol,” which I don’t think I’ve seen other reviewers do beyond mentioning the Vers name once in passing. Not a complaint, just interesting. Do you see her Kree identity as that integral to the character? Maybe it’s just that as a longtime fan she’s always been simply “Carol” to me.
I’ve done that because to *her* she is not Carol for a long part of the movie. And the movie is very much from her POV. That’s all. It just seems weird to call her “Carol” with the way this movie is structured.
Different strokes I guess. She seems relaxed, happy with herself, and jokey at both ends and rather gleefully kills hundreds if not thousands of Kree in the final rock em sock em spaceship battle – not really an ideal way for a literal social justice warrior to end a war. I’m a champion for unique approaches that work, which is why I gave it a second chance, but this one could have used a hefty sprinkle of trite action to button everything up. I’m not feeling it Mr. Krabs.
Replying because I literally just rewatched Winter Soldier: how many people do you suppose were on those three helicarriers Captain America knocked out of the sky?
It’s been a while since I watched the CA’s, but all I remember is that I liked a couple of the action scenes, mainly the ones involving Black Panther. I’m not a fan of the movies as a whole or Rogers as a character or Chris Evans as an actor. There’s a lot of narrative dissonance in many action movies and games (thousands of people must have died in the Avengers films as well) – one the one hand, the filmmakers want to provide a steady stream of “cool violence” against a bunch of mooks, but on the other, they want to stress how dramatic and tragic the loss of a single life is.
The usual solution is to other the mooks by making them aliens, monsters, and/or robots; however, Captain Marvel specifically goes out of its way to deconstruct this trope, so it was a bit disappointing to see it reinforced by the whoop of delight in the final battle. It’s a minor gripe in the long run, and I did appreciate that she held back and decided not to murder everyone. Still felt a little odd. The movie didn’t do a good job setting up the stakes – I understand that the killing was done to defend the Earth and save lives, but I never emotionally felt the danger, so it all seemed gratuitous. I just wish she was seriously tested in some way so we could share her sense of triumph and freedom.
I stumbled on an article that supports your perspective at Polygon of all places. It’s an interesting take:
https://www.polygon.com/2019/3/13/18263994/captain-marvel-skrulls-politics-history
I feel like a lot of what your saying could also apply to Steve Rogers. Do you see a lack of character development in him too?
Yes, if anything, I have even more issues with Rogers as a character who never changes. It’s been a while, but I remember liking a couple of the action scenes in CA2 and CA3 and thinking that Bucky was more interesting than Cap (and Bucky is not that interesting). Captain Marvel has the potential to carry her own movie – Rogers needs sidekicks and/or a major foil. It doesn’t help that Chris Evans is super bland, but it’s not all his fault, so is Rogers. I greatly prefer the wry sarcasm of Danvers.
I think I’m just not an MCU guy. When I see them playing in the breakroom at work, I turn off the TV. This is the MCU origin movie that came closest to really making me care, it just never congealed. The beginning at least made me curious and I honestly didn’t see the twist coming. I said the only time I felt strong emotions was the baseball scene during the montage – that’s not true, I also felt strong emotions when Monica was watching Carol fly away. Akbar really made me feel the admiration and love. I wanted to see a few more moments like that.
I am not here to do you any favors.
I insult manbabies because they decide they hated this movie without even seeing it.
Your opinion. Not a fact.
Feminists are becoming terrorists. Super hero movies should be made for everyone. Forcing a feminist agenda into movies to appease one gender is just wrong. There have been powerful women in nearly every MCU movie to date, but these terrorists will only be happy when all men are neutered and women rule the world.
If you think feminists are terrorists, that means you’re a manbaby who’s terrified of them. Excellent.
They are! Plenty of men, including me, enjoyed Captain Marvel and appreciated its themes. Just because a movie didn’t appeal TO YOU doesn’t mean all of a sudden it’s excluding ALL MEN from its audience — you don’t speak for all of us. Don’t look now, but some of the men around you (gasp) are actually feminists. It’s like we’re secret Skrulls or something!
Yeah, as long as Black Widow and Scarlet Witch are just two supporting characters in a team with 12 male superheroes, you’re all good. But the moment Marvel puts out a film with a woman at the center, look at how threatened you feel. LOL.
It’s also handy to imagine these ideologically deranged chaps saying exactly the same things about race (which sadly many already do):
“Black people are becoming terrorists. Super hero movies should be made for everyone. Forcing a black power agenda into movies to appease one race is just wrong. There have been powerful people of colour in nearly every MCU movie to date, but these terrorists will only be happy when all whites are neutered and black people rule the world”
(Epithets more likely to be used in actual screeds omitted for obvious reasons)
“To the privileged, equality feels like oppression.”
I don’t think you know what the word “terrorist” means.
Ah. So movies about white men are for everyone. Movies about women are only for women. Movies about black people are only for black people. What’s wrong with white men that they cannot enjoy a movie that doesn’t center a white man?
Your terror has been noted. A movie about a woman scares you to death. You might want to talk to someone about that. Help is out there.
Listen “lady”,
The Avengers is comprised of men AND women and POC and even a Raccoon. You’re a moron who doesn’t even know what you’re talking about.
And you conveniently bypassed all the examples I gave of powerful women lead characters because you crazy feminists are blinded by your jealousy of men and can’t see that we’re not all out to get you.
And for the record terrorists never win.
The irony here is off the charts.
I promise you, my dude, no one cares about your boner.
No one.
I said nothing about my boner but it was the first thing that came to your mind. Hmm you sure seem to care about it.
ter·ror·ist
/ˈterərəst/Submit
noun
1.
a person who uses unlawful violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.
“Unlawful violence and intimidation.” BAHAHAHAHA!
Yeah, it’s shocking how MaryAnn barged into your home and forced you at gunpoint to read and agree with her review, and then dragged you to a theater and chained you to a seat so you could watch the movie 10 more times.
Lighten up and stop freaking out, dude. You need to smile more.
You’re seriously delusional. Get some help.
When I read that someone had posted the definition, I assumed it was someone other than the guy who posted the original comment to prove that he was using it wrong. Now that I see that they are from the same people, I am… really confused
I forgot which email I originally used to comment. I do stand by the definition. While Terror…I mean Feminists have not yet used unlawful violence they do use bullying and intimidation to further their political aims.
By writing reviews you don’t agree with? By making films you don’t have to see? Poor baby, having to live in a world where not everyone is trying to please you.
That really is the problem, though: Too many white men cannot abide no longer being considered the center of the universe (even though they mostly ARE still treated that way).
Speaking as a Far East Asian man, not a white westerner of any kind, I’m baffled by this hostility towards white men. After all, Hollywood films are made in America, which still has a majority of white inhabitants, so I hear. So it is to be expected that white men are to be in Hollywood films. If you watch Korean, Indonesian, Chinese, Indian, Japanese films etc, do you complain that they overwhelmingly only portray Korean, Indonesian, Chinese, Indian, Japanese men?
In any case, if white men are no longer the ‘center of the universe’, what exactly is the replacement? Shall we have a whole cultural system, with film stories etc, centred around say the decidedly non-white Brunei Sultanate, with its sharia laws, an absolute ruling Islamist monarchy, no democracy (or rather no elections) and reported wide (though not fully verified) use of white women (and many other women of other ethnic groups) as palace concubines.
Yeah, it’s a real fucking mystery how self-centered men are. Baffling.
Speaking as a Southeast Asian man who has been an American citizen for decades, I suggest you do more homework regarding the specific issues of representation relevant to the United States.
For starters, it’s interesting that in your entire comment, you seem to forget that WOMEN EXIST. Women make up over half the population in the US and half of all moviegoers, and deserve to have a lot more stories that represent them and center their experiences — more than just the 24 percent of protagonists that we see onscreen.
Further, while whites are (for the moment) the majority in the US, there are a lot of significant minority populations who also happen to overperform as moviegoers — watching more movies more frequently than whites. They deserve to see more stories told by and about themselves too.
All in all, if whites are 73% of the US population, then white MEN only make up 36% of all Americans. Yet the VAST majority of Hollywood movies are about them. 36% of the population should not so completely dominate our stories and our imaginations (as well as hold the largest share of cultural and political power), while rendering the rest of us less important or invisible.
Oh no! What happened to all of the Korean, Indonesian, Chinese, Indian, and Japanese WOMEN? Did you lose them all? I am so, so sorry.
EVERYONE ELSE. White men are the minority in the US, and the minority around the world. We should be telling more stories about more kinds of people — including more stories about Far East Asians like yourself (and the Far East Asian women you keep conveniently forgetting).
Centering different kinds of PEOPLE does not mean CELEBRATING the GOVERNMENTS they live under. You can tell stories about the lives of people in Brunei — rich and poor, powerful and oppressed, men and women — without sugarcoating its harsh religious and political laws. I would absolutely welcome more of those stories.
Your manbaby tears are delicious. Thank you for them.
manbaby
noun
1. an “adult” male who, like a toddler, reacts to anything that doesn’t center their interests and pleasure with angry tantrums.
ultra-manbaby
noun
1. a manbaby who equates their lack-of-centering to intimidation or violence, which even toddlers have not the gall to suggest.
CB
noun
1. A douche.
2. A woman that wishes she could be a man but can’t so she attacks everything that men enjoy to make her feel better about being a loser.
And now you are banned.
i thought that happened 10 comments and 2 days ago. you have remarkable patience for a terrorist.
All part of my evil plan… to be as tolerant as possible with the trolls until I can no longer give them any benefit of the doubt.
LOOOOL! Men, like me, have no problem enjoying this kind of movie; it doesn’t even occur to us that we shouldn’t. Manbabies, on the other hand, feel the mere existence of things their own insecurity prevents them from enjoying is an “attack”. You really do make my toddler seem strong, self-assured, and unselfish.
Only after having read half of the review I realized this is not a parody of a hysterical feminist critic, but is actually one of them 😂
I didn’t even need to read your entire comment to know that it was not a parody of a man who hates women, but a sincere expression of such.
You guys are so tediously predictable. “Hysterical”? At least come up with a new insult that isn’t leftover from the Victorian era.
I keep perversely hoping for more INTERESTING trolls to show up, but we get the same boring one-note dreck. It’s possible that a mindset that hates women isn’t usually a mindset that cherishes language and wordplay. (“Cultural vandal” was a nice one, though.)
EDIT: Wait, never mind. Plenty of brilliant authors have been misogynist. *sigh* Guess we just aren’t getting any of them here.
SJW feminist crap.
MRA manbaby crap.
Get used to it.
Incredible review for an incredible film! I’m going to see it again to replace the absent manboi who can’t cope with brilliant pro-woman superhero movie! We really needed this now.
Ghostbusters remake sucked almost as bad as this pile.
You saw it anyway. :-)
The Ghostbusters redo was almost as good as this movie.
It’s funny because Mary Anne deleted my comments because they did fit the feminist (terrorists) agenda, but calls me (men) man babies!
The issue men have with this movie has nothing to do with the fact that Captain Marvel, a once strong female character has been hijacked and changed in order to further a political agenda.
I love strong, well written female characters. Captain Feminist was not one. The movie spent more effort pushing its agenda than it did introducing a character that is supposed to help the Avengers in the next movie. How about they build a strong character like Wonder Woman or Alita or Ripley or Sarah Connor (the list of strong female leads is quite long actually) instead of force-feeding us a bland feminist character with no soul?
Mary Anne and most feminists are so happy about this hijacking, but I’d bet anything almost none of them EVEN CARES about comic books. You only care about bullying your way into being represented into anything that men like even at the expense of ruining the product, which you have succeeded in doing. You people are sick.
Let’s see if Wishes She Was a Man-Baby deletes this comment too.
Your comments are still here, moron.
You do realize… you don’t HAVE to see this movie, right? NO ONE IS FORCING YOU TO SEE THIS.
I’d bet anything you haven’t read Captain Marvel comics since 2012.
And seriously? Your “terrorist” comparison is getting really offensive. Real people have been killed by terrorists. If you think arguing for better stories about women is the equivalent of terrorism, you’re seriously out of line. As MaryAnn said, get yourself some help.
I have not deleted any comments by you.
But if you would like to get banned, keep it up with this “terrorist” shit.
So, Goose for a remake of The Cat from Outer Space, yes?
Goose agrees!
https://youtu.be/I-yWrONEzjY?t=43
Look, the comments on this review just needed a cat video. We all know it.
You nailed my feelings for it. I love the movie, partly for the message it sends and because it’s so damn enjoyable.
I might see it again.
Movie aside, I’d just like to address this review… As an educated black male, I can understand and sympathize with the fight for equal representation in Hollywood; perhaps to an even greater extent than a majority of the feminist minded people here who seem to mostly be white females. That being said…
With an objective observation, this review has a very condescending tone and its writer comes across as bitter, arrogant, and confrontational. This in no way makes her technical arguments or personal opinions less valuable; however it only serves to hurt the cause as it further perpetrates the negative stereotypes of extreme feminist behavior.
I think we’d all agree the best way to create social change is to change the way people think about society and norms. We as black people during the civil rights era realized the best way to accomplish this was not through direct confrontation and criticizing our oppressors, but by standing firm in our fight and searching for common ground along the way. Bringing unlike minded people together. The only thing achieved by this kind of feminist behavior is further division and isolation. She is behaving just like the misogynist and sexist men she holds bitterness for, which is a human reaction to be fair, but has no place in an intellectually progressive discussion about… well any topic really, but especially social and gender inequality as it pertains to this movie.
Its okay to like this movie and its also okay to dislike this movie. What I have seen alot of here and many other places, are people making assumptions about white males reasons for disliking this movie and using a broad brush to paint all of these men as sexist and/or ignorant when mathematically that cannot be the case. Yes, there was alot of negative noise leading up to Cap Marvel’s release, but this noise came mostly as a result of the specific way Brie Larson expresses her feminist ideolgy. Ironically to me, somewhat similar to a figure all feminist hate, Trump, she makes comments that support her way of thinking without any regard for marginalizing a large part of her audience. Or at the very least, she doesnt appear to care how her comments have made a certain group feel…
If I remember correctly, a part of misogyny and sexism perpetrated by males is making comments in various settings that make women feel undervalued, uncomfortable, and less than equal. When women complained about this, they were called “overly sensitive” and “entitled” etc. Hypocrisy is not the answer here, if sexist trolls want to troll, let them troll, dont stoop to their level. And while you’re busy fighting the good fight, dont let a harmless white males technical dislike for this movie cause you to behave sexist toward them and devalue their opinions just because they are white males. Education takes time, dont perpetrate the same wrong you are fighting against and let the film speak for itself, which is what Brie Larson should have done.
Thank you for being civil. I don’t claim to be an expert, but black people were not a unified front during the civil rights period. Malcolm X and the Black Panthers were extremely confrontational and just plain racist, and on the other side, many black people supported the status quo and didn’t want to rock the boat. One could argue, and many people do, that the federal and state governments capitulated in part due to fears that a genuine revolution inspired by the more radical factions would develop.
That aside, MA is not anywhere near as confrontational or radical as Malcolm X, The Black Panthers, or The Nation of Islam. This review is occurring within the context of decades of trolls who come to this site specifically to throw comment tantrums under reviews they haven’t read about movies they haven’t seen and a large organized movement against this film because of Larson’s comment about the imbalance in film journalism that MA experiences and lives daily. Larson later clarified her one awkward statement, likely prompted by Disney, but she did it, and it sounded genuine. Trump has teams of people begging him to please remove just one of the many, many feet in his mouth, or maybe just a toe?and yet when he gets any pushback, he clamps down and flings out more vague insults at even more scapegoats. Any comparison of their approaches is a massive stretch.
Apart from the title, the majority of the review deals with the content of the film – there are a couple brief asides about manbaby dude geeks which aren’t sexist insults hurled at men in general, but a specific message addressed to a specific group that we are very familiar with here. Geeky women have been coddling and kowtowing to this particular group of men and their precious feelings for decades, so it seems odd to request that MA think of all those poor innocent, hurt men out there and please not celebrate or gloat in the end zone when it’s how she genuinely feels after watching the movie.
Any rational adult who read the title of the review in an aggregator and felt insulted or hurt would behave as you are, and calmly read the entire review, then state their opinion and suggestions, possibly unaware that MA has been receiving “helpful suggestions” about how to do her job from well-meaning readers for many years. The people she’s ridiculing are not rational adults – they’re frightened, angry, and confused children, desperate to tear women down so they can feel like winners. We tried your approach and “let them troll” for years, and look what they’ve become. No, when they emerge from their caves and poke their heads out from behind their mental walls, they need to learn that the adults in the world won’t allow their lazy bullshit to stink up the place. They deserve all the pity and ridicule they inevitably receive. People who genuinely want an honest conversation can find it here, but the trolls are not our children to gently talk down and carefully educate – they’re someone else’s spoiled brats making a mess, rampaging uninvited in our house. It’s time for them grow up or get out of the way.
I agree in large part, again when I said “let them troll” I meant dont let them drag you in the dirt. Keep it intellectual and factual, cause no one can argue with facts. Nothing is achieved from a name calling battle under a movie review, at that point EVERYONE is being childish.
Answer me this though, how can feminism succeed if the only people who understand/support it are females? Allies are essential to any movement like this. Is it fair? No, but its a fact. Black people also had to learn this early on. Instead of making enemies out of the average white male comic book movie lover who may or may not like this movie for non sexist reasons (of whom there are still more numerousbthan trolls) sould simply be reaffirmed of all negative/slanted tropes of feminism after reading this review. Its fine to gloat, but to this extent seems like she is just trying to invite conflict and division and wants the trolls to come challenge her.
Remember, the whole purpose of trolling is to create dissention so dont feed it. Thats all im saying.
Dude. I’m a man, and a feminist, and I’ve supported MaryAnn and her website for years. I fully understand that feminism isn’t about hating all men, and that is NEVER what MaryAnn has done. I have NEVER felt hated on this site. Many of the commenters you’re reading here are also men who are supporters and long-time readers. So she has allies, don’t you worry yourself about that. But there will always be misogynist men who will NEVER be reconciled to feminism and will NEVER stop attacking feminists no matter how they phrase their arguments, and MaryAnn is completely justified in running out of patience with them. You are acting as if the mission of reconciling the genders is entirely in her hands, but that’s not the case. There’s room for women to express their rage and mockery and sarcasm and frustration. If you really want to be an ally, LISTEN TO THEM AND LET THEM SAY WHAT THEY WANT TO SAY, IN WHATEVER WAY THEY WANT TO SAY IT. Instead, you’re a dude who is mansplaining and tone-policing and telling a woman what you think she can and can’t say.
Lord, read my reply directly to MaryAnn I litteraly said im just sharing my thoughts, she can do whatever she wants. I dont have the desire or the time frankly to control someone elses actions over the internet. Im just rasing a question. How does trolling/insulting back and forth from 2 oppossing sides going to
1) Influence anyone in the middle or who doesnt care either way and
2) Actually CHANGE anything for the better about anything related to this movie or feminism?
Women have a right to express anger and outrage just likenI do as a Black person. Yes, I completely agree. Problem here is that this is a MOVIE REVIEW. There should be, in my humble opinion, some seperation between this movie as a poster for feminism, and this movie as a form of aet and entertainment.
A movie review is the expression of the perspective of the unique individual person writing it. This movie review says everything that MaryAnn feels about the movie and its current social context. If you don’t like it, or if you feel it insufficiently addresses other aspects of the film that you think are more important, there’s a wonderful solution for you: Go read other reviews.
Well said, ladies and gentlemen, this right here is the mature and civil way to agree to disagree and communicate respectfully. I understand and appreciate both yours and MaryAnn’s points of view and this entire conversation. Be well
But there is no separation. Pop culture MATTERS. Movies have an enormous influence. A movie this one is hugely important.
As I have said many times over the years, there is no such thing as “just a movie.”
You disagree? Fine. But that is one of the underlying foundations of my criticism.
I agree pop culture matters, I would know. But giving a responsible critic of a movie is also important. It isnt neccessary to give a good, solid movie an underserved perfect 5/5 rating on Rotten Tomatoes just to promote feminism, or just to “stick it to the haters.” However, if you actually do believe the entire movie was just THAT outstanding in every way, I cant argue with that if thats your real opinion.
As I said — you’re acting as if she’s charged with the mission of reconciling the genders. She isn’t. SO WHAT if this review doesn’t change anything? She is EXPRESSING herself. Does it not occur to you that expressing anger at injustice, and mockery at incorrigible misogynists, might just FEEL GOOD?
Here’s an idea: If you’re so concerned about feminism, why don’t you take your reasonableness and your tone-policing to the manbabies and try to convince them to be nicer and kinder and more understanding?
You want to be an ally? That’s how men can be feminist allies: by demanding that the misosgynist men be better.
But they do. They HOWL and scream and cry and whine.
Women are not men’s teachers. I’ve done THAT, too, for years, and it’s fucking exhausting. I have better things to do. You want to be an ally? Educate yourself on feminism. LISTEN TO WOMEN instead of telling them how to instruct you.
And here’s a spoiler: The manbabies do not want to be allies.
One example, Ill assume for a second that your a non racist ehite person. Let also assume that Marvel’s Black Panther movie ( which I love) for whatever reason was getting troll hate. If you read a review from me with the same language as this one about white haters (and many do exist from angry black people trust me) how would you react as a non racist white person who may not like the film? And if a gave this movie an undeserving perfect 5/5 rating (yes, it wasnt a perfect movie) simply because im black and fed up with all of you white people; what would that say about my objectivity? Morally and intellectually? What would you think about my cause from my review? Would you feel like supporting it more or less?
If I wasn’t a white hater, I wouldn’t be bothered. If I was a white hater, no amount of civility or reason would change anything.
Racists are racists. Sexists are sexist. You cannot reason with a bigot.
This is called tone-policing, and it is not fucking helpful.
You say all this like these are bad things. They aren’t. I am fucking done with being nice. Telling women we need to be nice is a way to shut us up.
Sure, it’s okay to not like a movie. It is not okay to not like a movie before you’ve even seen it, to compare its star to Hitler, for fuck’s sake, and to engage in other misogynist idiocy. I am not assuming anything about the asshole I am addressing in this review. They have been perfectly plain and vocal about their opposition to this movie, and to women in general, since long before this movie was released. And this isn’t the first female-centered movie they pulled this same whiny shit with.
And yeah, you better believe that “mathematically,” many men are misogynist.
NOPE.
Aww, were someone’s feelings hurt? Too bad.
They’re not harmless. They are dangerous. And you, of all people — as a black man — should understand what institutional oppression is. White men are not subjected to such IN ANY WAY.
You think you’re being reasonable with your criticisms of feminism in general and of my review, and of Brie Larson, in particular. You’re not. You’re not saying ANYTHING that has not previously been said about feminists. And you’re not going to shut me up or get me to be nicer. Live with it.
Again, I wasnt criticizing the validity of your points, just the method of delivery. Not trying to make you do anything, just sharing my thoughts, your free to do what you want, I just wonder how you expect anything to change as a result. Just saying there might be a better way to communicate to people who dont share your exact way of thinking about the MOVIE, obviously the facts about inequality are self evident.
Basically, film is an expression of art right? And theres always more than one way to interpret it. It seems the feminist message in this movie has made feminist protect it it from being critiqued by anyone else for ANY other reason (not talking about sexist trolls here just regular people without an agenda who dont like the acting, storyline, other technical aspects of the film)
Its disheartening that you admit to painting with a braod brush here because you know thats disadvantageous, but I digress…
As much as I LOVED Black Panther movie, theres no way as a film critique that I would rate it 5/5 simply because it sooths my personal biases and fulfills my longing for equal black representation in Hollywood. That would be naive and irresponsible. There are flaws in Marvel’s Black Panther (which was nominated for an Oscar btw) just like there are flaws in Marvel’s Captain Marvel. Both were good movies but objectivelynI can look at the film itself and all its components and say neither film deserves a perfect rating.
Women have been asking nicely for change since forever. It doesn’t work.
I’ve been writing “nicely” about the depiction of women in movies for more than 20 years. I’m done with nice. Done.
Men have been doing this since forever, too. (And white people do think about nonwhite people.) You are not saying anything new, or provocative, and certainly nothing that no one has not heard before.
Where did I do that?
Great. What does that have to do with me?
Say what?!
There is no such thing as objective arts criticism. NONE.
I was sent here from your RT review rating it 5/5. My main contention with your review was about how it seemed unbalanced an attributed the movies perfection almost entirely due to its feminist message, rather than to technical film elements. I kinda got sidetracked with the rest. But as I said, I understand and appreciate your points and you are correct about alot of what you are saying.
She doesn’t usually write about technical aspects of film. Maryann talks primarily about writing because she’s a writer. She liked the writing in this film, so she rated it as such. You can’t claim that someone can say what they want about a film and then tell them they rated it too nice. These are the same things.
I don’t talk about writing because I’m a writer. I talk about story and character and themes and subtext and cultural context because that’s what matters to me: I care infinitely more about those things than I do about cinematography or mise en scène and so on. And I think that’s how most people approach movies, too: it’s a much smaller and more exclusive clique of cinephiles who approach film more technically. That’s not me, and it never will be.
Sorry, I was trying to simplify things for visitors. I didn’t mean to speak for you. My bad.
If you truly are Black, you should be ashamed of yourself for appropriating (and mischaracterizing) our Peoples’ struggle to score some kind of shot against a movie reviewer! A movie reviewer, I might add, who’s speaking out in response to aggression from those with whom reason, as you suggest, is just not possible.
Make your arguments for or against, but don’t use our struggle as some kind of prop or weapon or shield. Cut that shit out, man!
Captain Marvel sucks. What’s her backstory? Nothing. What’s her powers ? Same old, same old.
What’s Peter Parker’s backstory? High school nerd. What’s Steve Rogers’ backstory? Skinny soldier. What’s MCU Hawkeye’s backstory? Literally nothing. Do they all suck?
As for Carol: Badass USAF pilot who gets her powers from heroic action. Loyal friend and loving “aunt.” Tough woman who keeps getting up after she’s been beaten down. (Bet you liked it when it was Steve Rogers saying “I can do this all day.”)
Flying (same as Iron Man, Thor, Falcon, Vision). Enhanced strength (same as Captain America, Black Panther, Thor, Spider-Man, Hulk). Energy blasts (same as Iron Man, Vision). Tech suit with self-assembling helmet (same as Iron Man, Ant-Man, Black Panther, Star-Lord). Energy absorption (same as Iron Man’s suit) and more if you read the comics.
So, you’re right, nothing COMPLETELY new. But I bet you don’t have any problem with all the MALE superheroes having these powers.
Avengers #200 is her backstory.
So, did you WANT to see her raped onscreen?
So her defining moment to you is a 40-year-old single issue where some dude writers decided she should be raped. Not a 21st century comics run where women writers elevated her to badass cosmic warrior and inspired a fan community. Yeah, I see what you are, and you can fuck off.
Her backstory is: She doesn’t have a penis. Her superpower is: She doesn’t need a penis.
Avengers #200
Yeah. Awesome. Rape is a terrific backstory. So wonderful for giving women “character” and “depth.”
Except I was talking about the movie. As were you.
When you are accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.
Yup. :-)
When you are accustomed to oppression, sometimes you loose sight of equality get caught up in using hate vs hate instead of rising above it
Oh, hello. You’re back, and with the same argument. So much for agreeing to disagree and moving on to read other reviewers.
Oh im finished, MaryAnn was still responding after our discussion ended so I thought she might reply again thats all
You’ve already made all your points, repeatedly, and she’s already answered you, thoroughly. Time to make good on your “agree to disagree” comment. Bye.
You want another reply? How’s this:
You cannot equate the “hatred” of systemic cultural institutional oppression with the “hatred” of me being angry about it, and expect to be taken seriously.
From your review: “As depicted here, though, Vers/Danvers is completely outside that paradigm. It’s so refreshing… and it’s something that you don’t even realize is an unspoken subtext of almost every depiction of women in our culture until it’s suddenly not there.”
I remember being struck by how Carol didn’t respond to the biker, not having a love interest (thank goodness!) and, of course, when she said she had nothing to prove. What other examples are there for what you’re talking about? I’m worried I might’ve missed a few things.
It’s her entire attitude. How she speaks to Fury, for instance, or even just to the security guard in the Blockbuster parking lot. It’s with the ingrained assumption of being treated seriously. It’s in how she carries herself, with no self-consciousness at all… and yet also the film doesn’t make it a sort of joke that she’s oblivious to how she is being seen once she’s on Earth.
Thanks. Those are excellent points. There was no tentativeness in her interactions, no attempts to please. I think it’s kind of like when I did a study abroad in Norway. I didn’t realize just how much I structure my life around my safety here in the USA until I didn’t have to there. Very liberating.
Well if this isn’t a blatantly sexist and racist article against white men I dont know what is.
I dont want to see the movie because of this bullshit.
Not because of a woman lead or superhero.
This controversy never arose with Moana, who tamed a Demi God. Or with Katniss from the Hunger games. Or even Wonder Woman. Who is a legit Female Superhero lead.
The BULL starts when all the She’s start pushing their agenda into the movie.
Like with “robot rights” in Star Wars or with Captain Marvel.
Bullshit. It’s like you magically forgot all the trolls attacking Gal Gadot’s weight, muscles, breast size, and acting abilities from the moment she was cast, and all the manbabies who freaked out when some theaters held celebratory women-only screenings, etc etc.
But hey, if you liked Wonder Woman, good for you! Did you like the part where she tells Steve “What I do is not up to you”? Did you like the part where she says men are not necessary for pleasure? Did you like the part where she broke the stalemate at No Man’s Land when all of the men couldn’t do it? Did you like it that she saved Steve from being shot in the alleyway, not the other way around? Did you like it that Steve and his other guy friends were totally supportive of her? Great! If you were fine with all that, congratulations — you have no problem with the “SJW agenda,” and you’ll be fine with Captain Marvel.
Again, I’m not sure you understand what the “agenda” IS. The film’s agenda is to tell a story about a female superhero who kicks ass, with help from other awesome women and supportive men. It’s exactly what Wonder Woman did. Which you say you liked.
Yeah, yeah, whatever. You’re gonna see it.
If you’re not a howling manbaby terrified of women, I was not directing my rage at you. But I see in your other comment that you think SJW is an insult and something bad, so I guess you are. Enjoy the discomfort.
You think Moana isn’t radical? Try reading my review. You pants-wetting manbabies just didn’t realize it.
Here’s the agenda, my dude: You are no longer going to be coddled. You are no longer going to be considered the center of the universe.
Learn to live with it.
His examples got me thinking about how the troll response is probably influenced by the type of marketing. Moana, Katniss, Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel are all great feminist heroes. But the marketing for Moana mainly emphasized diversity (look! Polynesians!) rather than her straight-up feminist badassery, so I think a lot of the discussion (and troll pushback) was around cultural authenticity and “PC multiculturalism.” Katniss in the Hunger Games films is undeniably feminist, but not in Carol’s striding-the-film-unheeding-of-the-patriarchy style that’s pissing off the trolls so much; Katniss is struggling with PTSD and manipulation by media and government and just trying to survive, and a lot of the marketing and public conversation was around which boy she’d get with (Team Peeta or Team Gale). Meanwhile, WW and CM are playing in the Comics Sandbox — which fanboy manbabies seem to be more territorial about than Disney Princess movies or YA franchises — and they’re more straightforwardly being presented as confident, badass, feminist warriors. I think THAT’s the stick stirring up the trolls’ little hornet’s nest.
Honestly, Bluejay, your great analysis is wasted. Some dudes just wanna watch the world burn, and on any and every image that doesn’t reflect their own, they pour rhetorical gasoline while striking an asinine match.
Thanks, but it’s not wasted; I’m not necessarily writing it for him. YOU liked it. :-)
Y’know…. LOL! You’re right :^)
I found the comment really thought-provoking and important. I had thought about posting a detailed response, but I’m still processing the ideas Bluejay brought up, and may be for a while.
Only emphasizes how narrowminded the manbabies. They cannot see past the end of their noses.
How do you know it’s bullshit until you actully watch the movie?
No matter Brie Larson’s views, to believe that Marvel/Disney would allow any actor’s sociopolitical agenda to dictate a franchise, especially a new one, you’d have to be absolutely hate-filled and/or absurdly naive. Oh… uh…. hm….. carry on.
Because — exactly the opposite of how I just described Vers/Carol in another comment — the manbabies are driven by emotion and tribalism.
“The BULL starts when all the She’s start pushing their agenda into the movie.”
Why is it an “agenda” if a woman (or person of color) does something but not if a white guy does it? If a man in a movie rescues a woman, that’s great. If the woman rescues the man, it’s pushing an agenda?
“Like with “robot rights” in Star Wars or with Captain Marvel.”
I assume you’re talking about Rogue One, where the robot talking about rights was not only on point but also often funny the way it was handled. But the idea of “robot rights” in science fiction dates back at least to some of Isaac Asimov’s robot stories, if not earlier. It’s not something new inserted by the dreaded SJWs into recent works.
The “robot rights” thing was in Solo, not Rogue One. But this conversation reminds me of a thread NK Jemisin recently posted on Twitter. Worth clicking on:
https://twitter.com/nkjemisin/status/1105950917537513472
Her main point is that we’ve become so fluent in SFF that we’ve become complacent about the issues it points out through subtle allegories, so we’re comfortable overlooking its social critiques and just want to “enjoy the story.” So she thinks SFF should spell it out more explicitly. It’s not enough to merely depict bigotry in your story anymore, and trust the audience to get that it’s a bad thing; you have to have characters (or the story itself) POINT OUT the bigotry as a bad thing. (And this may lead to resentment from readers/viewers who just want their spaceships and don’t want to be made to think of bigotry.)
In the original Star Wars, the Mos Eisley bartender is an obvious bigot: he’s a jerk who points to the droids and says “We don’t serve their kind here.” We’re meant to think that he’s narrow-minded and wrong. But the movie itself (and the franchise) falls down on this, and never follows through on its critique. No one comments on his bigotry, and everyone else, including the heroes, treats droids like property too. Luke thinks nothing of buying and selling them; Obi-Wan casually doesn’t recall “owning a droid”; Han Solo mistreats C-3PO throughout the original trilogy. I think it’s fair to say that the situation of the droids in the SW universe can objectively be described as the enslavement of sentient beings. But because it’s several steps removed from the bigotry and history of slavery in OUR world, we’ve been comfortable just accepting it as a science fiction trapping and moving on with the story. (The screenwriters have largely seemed to be fine with this too.) So, it IS jarring when “robot rights” are suddenly brought up in Solo; but it’s not wrong to do so. Arguably it’s VERY necessary if SFF is going to get back to doing what it’s supposed to do — using its made-up worlds to critique the real world, and making us uncomfortable with the status quo.
As for Captain Marvel, I’ve seen complaints that its feminist messaging is a little too “on the nose.” But again, as NK Jemisin might argue, maybe “on the nose” is what audiences need these days. Maybe the times have become too dire for the luxury of subtle indirection.
That Stan Lee cameo, though. T.T
it sucked lol
“And that concludes my TED talk.”
Beautiful
Why? How? Are you able to explain the suckitude without resorting to trolling? Give it a try.
Forgive me if this sounds corny, but when Goose was introduced, I thought it was some oblique reference to Tom Cruise’s partner in “Top Gun”. Almost the same vintage, anyway.
Not oblique, no:
https://d23.com/captain-marvels-paw-some-pal/
It is absolutely a reference to *Top Gun.* Not oblique at all.
Watching Guardians of the Galaxy after this was fun. People who say this film doesn’t add to the Universe haven’t seen it.
I’m stoked that Disney rehired James Gunn for GotG3 – I don’t think he’s a great director or anything, but the team would lose a lot of its charm without Bautista. I did like that they kept the tech consistent from GotG to CM – I really hope that Kree girl that tried to rip Starlord’s thorax out ends up being Danvers.
Hmm… now I’m hearing Gunn was never actually fired, and it was just an act to avoid any delays with the Fox merger. How convenient that Disney revealed this “rehire” after CM had a successful opening week.
I’d love to give the dude the benefit of the doubt, but to truly convince me that a man who was a toxic fanboy at 42 has made a complete 180 in 8 years, I’m gonna have to see some evidence in the GotG3 and SS2 scripts. Kevin Hart is probably thinking, “Seriously? Not only was this dude probably never fired, he got a career boost? I gotta hire his crisis management team.”
If Bautista was in on the act the whole time, bravo. I really believed he was willing to quit. If he didn’t know, he must feel like an ass for putting his career on the line for a lie. Anyway, it’s rumors at this point. It does throw a wrench in the whole “we hate toxic fanboys” message Disney’s marketing department was sending, and it’s definitely going to be a bit awkward if Gunn and Larson have to work together down the line.
That sounds like a bit of a conspiracy theory, considering they’ve had to move things around for Suicide Squad 2. James Gun seems to be a pleasant person to work with, but who knows?
So, it’s the fact (if this is the case) that he was never actually fired that suddenly made you doubtful? How come you weren’t doubtful a day about about Gunn’s supposed reformation? How come you weren’t bothered a day ago about a 42-year-old toxic fanboy?
It was a lack of research and foolish assumptions. I glanced at his picture back when he was fired, assumed he was in his 30’s, and that the uproar was about edgelord jokes he made when he was in his early 20’s. I didn’t really have any strong feelings either way at the time (not a big GotG fan) other than thinking that Southpark probably told far more offensive jokes weekly, but Disney was free to fire whomever they wanted, and not wanting Bautista to quit the team for selfish reasons of my own (I like his scenes).
When I read the rumors that he was never truly fired, I was curious enough to look up his age and read the specific “jokes” in question. I now realize he wasn’t just some stupid kid fresh out of college making jokes on a private account to his buddies, but a grown ass professional with real power who thought it was funny and entertaining to rank female superheroes on a personal fuckability scale for an audience of manbaby geeks among other sexist bullshit, and it kinda made me doubt the sincerity of his redemption arc.
Then I thought back to GotG and GotG2 and how they generally handled their female characters vs. their male characters, and I thought, “You know what? Fuck that guy.” Then I thought about the specific timing of this announcement after all the hullabaloo about toxic fans surrounding CM, and I thought, “You know what? Fuck Disney.” Then I thought about how in the comics, Danvers interacts with the GotG a lot (I was hoping Rocket would have a cameo in CM with Goose), and realized that Gunn and Larson will probably work on a movie together down the line, and thought, “eesh, well that’ll be interesting.” It’s my fault for not researching more carefully when he was first fired, but I honestly didn’t care at the time. Now that Danvers might show up in a GotG movie, I’m a lot more curious.
The line I loved the most:
“I have nothing to prove to you.”
Not only is a great, cheerworthy line, but it’s also really important for the representation of female protagonists and female superheroes.
having seen the movie, my thoughts:
1) I kept getting the feeling we were missing scenes – stuff with Solarr, stuff that would have shown Ronan and how dangerous he would become, stuff that would have explained more of the Kree-Skrull War – that would have given us both more epic staged fights and more depth to “Vers” (to show perhaps a more heroic soul than her fake teammates).
2) Why oh why are so many scenes in the effing dark?! YO, SCIENCE LAB SPACESHIP, PAY YOUR LIGHT BILLS! No, seriously, the lighting in this movie was terrible. I know they weren’t up to the energy efficient bulbs in the 1990s, but c’mon…
3) I like “Just a Girl” as a song, but couldn’t they have included it as a song playing within the lab room during that big fight? There was a perfectly good jukebox there. They could have had a plasma blast turn it on, playing the song, Carol could have responded “Hey nice song” and then spent half the fight stopping her opponents from wrecking the jukebox. Having it play on the soundtrack just made the fight… goofy.
4) Loved Samuel L. Jackson in this, who gets to flesh out Fury in this movie and has incredible rapport with Larson. This is the most relaxed I’ve seen him in a role since Snakes on a Plane. :)
5) Laughed at all the jabs at 90s tech. Alta Vista? Networks constantly disconnecting? 16-bit processors that took forever to work? The lack of Google Maps? Yeah, fond memories…
There was a moment (and it’s exactly the one you’d expect) when the people in my theater burst into applause. I loved it, and the movie, SO MUCH.
In addition to That Moment (and others), there was a little moment that struck me that doesn’t seem to be talked about very much: It’s when Carol is on Mar-Vell’s ship, and she’s got the Tesseract in a lunchbox, and she’s sitting on a ledge waiting for her former teammates to come and attack her, and she’s just swinging her legs like a carefree little girl (with a lunchbox!) on a playground. Just carefree and confident in her powers and almost giddy with anticipation of the fight to come. LOVED that. It’s not something Widow or Scarlet Witch or Okoye would do, which is what’s great about it: the more female superheroes you see, the more they can have their own personalities and just be their own distinct selves.
To the coward who replied to my comment and then deleted it: the theater I saw it at opening weekend, which was at :330PM on Friday, was well over half full, and the theater was very busy when we left, with most of the talk I could hear being about Captain Marvel. But keep telling yourself that a movie that has been tops at the box office and compared very, very well to other blockbusters was a failure.
It’s possible that MAJ deleted it, since I (and I’m sure others) flagged it as abusive. And while box office is never an argument for quality (positive or negative), it’s ludicrous to claim that NO ONE is interested in seeing Captain Marvel — it’s gonna pass $900 million this weekend and hit $1 billion in a couple of weeks. But I’m sure that won’t stop the manbabies from saying NO ONE is watching this film.
I can’t wait for someone to make a GIF out of the “I have nothing to prove to you” moment, so we can just use it as a quick smackdown to trolls and be done with it.
I am generally not a fan of GIFs, but I would use that one.
No, I deleted that person’s comments. They were nothing but abusive.
Thank you! Feel free to delete my response if needed.
meh. don’t get so triggered, i just think the character is dumb. always have always will. anything forced and inorganic is lame. and this character is super forced and super generic and lame.
CM: I´m stronger because I´m a woman
Alita: I´m stronger and I´m a woman
That´s difference between a trully strong female character and a marvel crappy feminist hero
Nowhere in CM does the film say she’s stronger BECAUSE she’s a woman. But I can see how a threatened dude might misinterpret it that way.
Your ignorance and idiocy is showing through.
Blocked.
You’re gonna need to cite evidence from the film to support this.
“Bocked!” Bahahaha! And I’m not even the one that blocked you. You can’t even get that one right.
It’s curious that trolls always think “feminist” and “cat lover” are insults, like “social justice warrior.” These are all GOOD things. If you want to keep calling us those things, go right ahead. I’m sure none of us mind one bit.
Anyway, you’re boring, so I actually WILL “bock” you now. Bye bye.
Honestly, I kinda dislike this movie, they took so much “away” from the character that made her fun and “human”. We only get a tiny glimpse of the persona that loved calling captain America “Army”…
The movie suggesting she’s the “strongest”, while marvel has ALWAYS had the Hulk as the strongest one there is, able to shatter the planet earth, or lift the entire city of New York…
What they turned Captain Marvel into is essentially, a “Superman” without the weaknesses… and trust me, I don’t like Superman either. I like relatable hero’s with real problems, with real questions.. While most of the fans hated it for example i actually liked the Cat Woman movie. I like characters like Squirrel girl, America Chavez, Halo. When Halo was asked, since she had no memories of her life before, why did she still wear the Hajib… her response, “I don’t know, it just feels right, it feels like a part of me.” Its relatable and understandable.
Stop praising this movie because it has a woman who is kicking butt, which by the way there are plenty of movies that do it well unlike this movie. This is movie is average (5 out of 10 at best) if taken as a stand-alone movie. If taken in the context of the overall MCU, which it should be, it is a below average (3 out of 10 at best) movie. With all of the plot holes, the meh to in some cases bad story, the bad acting on the part of the main character, the contradictions in established MCU history, and the lack on consistency with established character development, this is not a very good movie. Of course all of this being said, because the movie deals so heavily with forced agenda’s, it will be nominated for what has become one of the biggest farces in the movie industry…the Oscars Best Picture award.
I disagree.
With what part? My rating for the movie is obviously subjective and most of my view on the main character’s acting is subjective, but the majority of my critiques are very much objective. And, don’t get me wrong…this is not the first MCU movie that I have panned for not being very good. My review of Iron Man 3 was very critical and to this day remains one of my least favorite movies in the MCU.
All of it.
No, they’re not. Which parts do you think are objective?
Just to name a few because I have a lot:
– This whole movie is about aliens and yet in the first Avengers movie, Nick Fury states that with Thor we learned that we are not alone and that we are hopelessly and hilariously outgunned.
– In this movie they referred to themselves as SHIELD. In the first Iron Man movie Agent Colson refers to it by the full name, Pepper says that’s a mouthful, he says they are working on it, and by the end he says to call them SHIELD. All of which happened during the timeline of that movie.
– Howard Stark recovers the tesseract at the end of the Captain America. How did Mar-vel get her hands on the tesseract? Not a plot hole or continuity issue, but poor story writing.
– Carol Danvers was a test pilot not a fighter pilot. Call signs are given to fighter pilots generally during naming ceremonies. As a test pilot she would never have been given an official call sign and had she been it would never be Avenger since, what would she have to avenge as a test pilot?
– Nick Fury was not Nick Fury. Given his approximate age in this movie and his age in the more recent times movies, his personality would never change so dramatically.
– In the movie (not the comics) CM gets her powers from the tesseract, which is the space stone. Why would she have the powers that she does from the space stone? The power to teleport, okay because you know that’s the power of the space stone, but not to do everything she does. At least with the Scarlet Witch her powers came from the mind stone, so you could make arguments for her power, but not CM with the space stone.
– Nick Fury has given pep talks around things like when he still had his eye was the last time he trusted someone and the likes, so it is very anti-climactic to have him lose his eye the way he did.
– Why didn’t Nick Fury page CM during the first Avengers movie? Aliens coming down through portals and nukes being launched to blow up New York city seem plenty extreme enough to call in the big guns especially when the alternative is a rag team of unproven individuals that are not even a team.
Your first two points, I just put down to the fact that Captain Marvel is a retcon, and some details just didn’t line up. Since I enjoyed the film, I’m willing to forgive those inconsistencies. YMMV.
(I *do* appreciate the fact that, in Iron Man, Coulson tells Stark “this isn’t my first rodeo,” and Fury tells Stark “You think you’re the only superhero? You’ve become part of a bigger universe, you just don’t know it yet.” So while some details are inconsistent, it’s very plausible in-universe that SHIELD already had experience with superheroic situations before Iron Man showed up.)
I’m not familiar with how pilots get their call signs, so I’ll give you that. If you’re right, it’s an interesting slip. But again, I enjoyed the film, so that doesn’t bother me. I’ll note, though, that Brie Larson got a call sign from the pilots she researched and trained with, even though she’s not a pilot at all.
I had that question initially as well, but it wasn’t that hard to figure it out. Mar-Vell was disguised as a scientist working for SHIELD, which already had custody of the Tesseract thanks to Howard Stark, who was a founding member of SHIELD. So that’s how she had access to it.
https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Project_P.E.G.A.S.U.S.
Thirteen years passed between the events of Captain Marvel and Iron Man. A lot can happen to affect a person in that time. Hell, it’s only been three years since Trump was elected, and I’m already a lot more bitter and angry. :-)
Why would the space stone be limited to the powers we only know about SO FAR? Also, the space stone’s powers seem to be fudgeable and not limited to teleportation; remember that, in the first Captain America, Hydra harnessed the Tesseract to create weapons that used powerful energy blasts.
“Anticlimactic” is subjective. I thought it was brilliant and hilarious. And Fury was absolutely telling the truth: he trusted Goose, and lost an eye because of it. Technically, he lost his eye to an aggression by a tentacled space alien. How is that not badass? :-)
https://www.slashfilm.com/why-nick-fury-didnt-page-captain-marvel/
While there may be plausible in-universe reasons (see link above), I just put this down (again) to inconsistencies in the retcon. Kevin Feige and Marvel may have a general plan, but they’re also working out individual movies on the fly. When Avengers came out in 2012, Captain Marvel was just STARTING her acclaimed Kelly Sue DeConnick comics run and beginning to build up her current fanbase. I don’t think there was a real plan to include her in the MCU until a few years after that. (I’m sure they’ll run into this problem many times as they incorporate all the X-Men characters they’ve now reacquired.) I’m fine with the inconsistencies as long as I’m relating to the characters and enjoying the story. Again, YMMV.
You think we see everything that happens? (Maybe Fury did try to get in touch with Captain Marvel at other times.) You think characters don’t lie or mislead? (Maybe Fury never tells anyone the whole truth who doesn’t need to know it, or if a bit of fudging of the truth is necessary to keep someone motivated.) You think ANY series that has gone on for this long doesn’t trip itself up with continuity? Retconning is a thing for a *reason.*
If this stuff bothers you, then there’s nothing anyone can say that will change that. But this is not a focus for many people when it comes to ongoing, wide-ranging stories.
Yep, and in fact those are well-established parts of Fury’s character, which we know from Avengers and Winter Soldier.
Yup. Things can be a retcon *and* a peek into someone’s character at the same time!
Yeah, I didn’t even do that. Did you even read my review?
Yeah, I read your review and I know that you did not literally praise the movie because it has a woman who kicks butt. In fact, if I’m not mistaken I believe at one point you even comment on how she is so great that she doesn’t need to literally kick butt. However, what I also read is a review that was almost entirely based around man vs woman or manbabies vs woman with no real meat behind reviewing the movie on the strength of the script, the character development, or anything else that should really matter when reviewing a movie. Yes, you touch on some of the story topics, but there is a heavy bias towards how manbabies are afraid of a strong woman who sets her own rules and doesn’t conform to societies expectations or failings, etc, etc., etc. And yes, there are some people who will criticize the movie for the wrong reason as there are people who will praise the movie for the wrong reasons, but I would be willing to bet that the majority of people who criticize the movie or think it was just average are doing so legitimately. There are plenty of movies out there, which are highly regarded that have strong female leads. That is not the problem. The problem, is a general problem with Hollywood these days. Hollywood is more concerned with making statements than with entertaining and simply focusing on a strong story. It shouldn’t matter who the lead is whether it be a man, woman, green alien, or other…just make a good story.
EVERY movie makes some kind of statement about society and/or politics. But when the statement happens to be feminist, it’s interesting how a lot of folks are allergic to it.
Nolan’s Batman films have a lot of Meaningful Things to Say about order vs chaos, or whether violent revolution is justified, or government surveillance, or capitalism and Occupy Wall Street — the characters are always Talking About the Themes and don’t make any effort to hide it. The Captain America films are about fighting fascism, distrust of government, “freedom vs fear,” autonomy vs accountability. Christopher Reeve’s Superman films are about upholding Truth, Justice, and the American Way (he even says so himself, right out loud). Infinity War asks us to think about overpopulation and scarcity of resources, and whether saving lives justifies taking lives. A lot of action films reflect the politics of their times, whether it’s the Cold War or the “War on Terror” or environmental disaster etc. James Bond and Indiana Jones are the white Western male heroes who defeat the foreign baddies and get “the girl.” Rocky knocks out Ivan Drago, then makes a big speech for peace. Rambo rescues POWs from Vietnam to help American audiences feel better about losing the war. The Day After Tomorrow is literally about climate change. And so on.
Somehow we’re all fine with this. (Not saying everyone agrees, or has to agree, with their messages, but we accept that they HAVE messages.) They’re clearly movies with Big Themes underlying their stories, but we also enjoy them as stories. But a film that says, “Hey, here’s a superhero main character who happens to be a woman for a change, who discovers her true self and true potential and kicks some major ass,” for some reason has to put up with so much resistance from fans who don’t mind the social/political themes in all those OTHER movies.
It’s like I always say: If you think a work of art or entertainment — or a critic reviewing that work — isn’t biased, it’s only because your biases align with it. That’s it.
Yup. I was just trying to spell it out a little more. :-)
And the double standard is pretty clear in this case. Captain Marvel shares a lot of similarities with Captain America. Steve experiences discrimination for being skinny and weak; gets knocked down and gets back up; stands up to bullies; achieves his true potential; gets help from a squad of dudes, including his best friend; fights an enemy with a political ideology (fascism) and saves liberal Western society. Carol experiences discrimination for being a woman; gets knocked down and gets back up; stands up to sexists; achieves her true potential; gets help and support from women, including her best friend; fights an enemy with a political ideology (imperialist expansionism) and saves refugees. But a lot of fanboys who watched Captain America and said “Great story!” will watch Captain Marvel and say “Too feminist! Too much ‘girl power’! Too political!” All because a woman is at the center of the same kind of story they enjoy when it’s about a guy.
So why say that, then?
It’s a tiny part of my commentary.
Who said otherwise? But that does not change my praise of the film. My opinion is not subject to a majority vote.
Name 50 from this year. I’ll wait. (Here’s a hint: there a fuckton more than 50 just from this year alone with male leads.)
They really aren’t. The movies we get would look a LOT different if this were true.
Go tell that to all the manbabies who are personally insulted by female superheroes, female Jedis, etc. Tell that to Hollywood. If it doesn’t matter who the lead is, why don’t we see more leads who aren’t white men? White men are represented onscreen way out of proportion with their percentage of the population. And clearly YOU are bothered by the fact that the lead of this movie not a white man.
The Oscars are now and have always been a politically and financially motivated popularity contest – the most you can say about the nominees is that a lot of people in the industry liked them and/or the team who made them. That said, this movie will not be nominated for Best Picture, and even if it is, that has no bearing on the subjective opinions of two people on the internet, unless you’re saying that in the past, you automatically liked every single movie nominated for an Oscar, and everyone else should too?
Wait, are you endorsing totalitarianism? You understand the subjective nature of art right? You gave this movie a 5 out of 10 for reasons of your own, MA gave it a 5 out of 5 and wrote a review explaining her thoughts and reactions. That’s it. That’s what happened. The story’s over unless you want to have a constructive conversation about it.
Do you think you determine the objective value of a work of art on a numerical scale for all of humanity? Imagine a random person walks into a restaurant, eats a bite of the food and says, “5 out of 10, too much sauce, the mushrooms overpower the eggplant, bland presentation!”
Another patron chimes in, “I actually love this dish, I like the taste of mushrooms, I can’t get enough of this delicious sauce, and presentation isn’t what I look for in a dish.”
“Wrong! 4 out of 10! That’s the score! It’s terrible!”
“Well, actually I’m a food critic – I’ve written a lengthy review of this dish, I have a copy right here if you’d care t-”
“Wrong! 3 out of 10! You just liked it because you love mushrooms like all the rest of those shroom-loving critics! I bet this dish wins a ton of awards because all food critics care about is mushrooms and flavour and whether or not the food tastes good to them! What about my tastebuds? Why don’t they think about what tastes good to me when they eat food!?”
“Well, if you look around, I’m sure you can find many other critics with tastes similar to yours.”
“But I can’t enjoy any of the food I love unless I know that everyone in the world hates the food I hate too!”
Do you see now how strange your proclamations are? Why are you here? Are you trying to force people to dislike something just because you dislike it? Next time, try to explain why you dislike a work of art without belittling those that do.
I kind of loved this movie. Can’t wait to watch her kick Thanos’ ass.
She has nothing to prove to you.
One of the things I appreciate about this site is the fact that MA takes the time (when she has any) to moderate the comments, weed out trolls, and dissect poor arguments. It makes the site feel like a group of adults coming together to celebrate and/or discuss movies rather than a bunch of random children screaming tribal memes and/or snidely judging everyone around them without offering any perspectives of their own. Here are her options:
1) Ignore them and let the comment section turn into a cesspool of anti-feminist dumbassery and flavour of the minute memes a la youtube, twitter, etc.
2) Immediately ban them so they can return to their caves triumphantly gloating that she lives in fear of their brilliant ideas and is a hypocrite who doesn’t value the exchange of ideas and perspectives
3) Calmly and patiently spend every waking hour responding to each angry tantrums by giving them all a personally customized education in logic, history, social norms, internet etiquette, feminism, film history, story telling, and critical theory all while being careful not to irritate their fragile, bruised egos.
4) Briefly point out the aspects of their arguments that she disagrees with if they have one, and if they persist in being combative and insulting, ban them
5) Close the comments section
Those be the options. It’s not “bad form” to pick 4) and the people she insults in the process are usually condescending douchenozzles who come here in a huff from Rottentomatoes because “this wahmen doesn’t like the same products as me, I will tell her how stupid she is! Also feminism is ruining my life somehow and it’s all your fault!” It’s not her job to be nice to people like that – Natalie Wynn is in charge of that department.
Fuck you.
BOOM. $1 billion in less than a month. I’m not usually one to crow about box office numbers, but after all the bullshit the film and Larson have had to put up with, this feels really good. Suck it, haters.
The haters will find some reason to dismiss this figure, some way to explain how it doesn’t really “count” or measure up to the sorts of films they want to champion. It’s inevitable.
Oh, of course. But Carol has nothing to prove to them. :-)
Literally three days ago, I quoted your line about Frozen teaching studio execs that people really love movies about ice. Sigh.
(Have you seen the trailer for the sequel, though? Because two out of two human females in this household give it an “EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!”, and I’m pretty sure the girlkitty liked it, too.)
“People love movies about tentacled aliens disguised as cats!”
“People want a Nick Fury origin story!” (Though at least that would center a black man.)
“So many people of color in Captain Marvel! (Okay, yes, some of them are blue…)” Genuinely, what is this supposed to mean? That aliens don’t count for diversity simply because they don’t exist on Earth? Please elaborate, I hope I’m not right with this conclusion.
Genuinely, it means that the representation of nonwhite people onscreen still has lots of catching up to do, including as lead characters. And no, aliens do not count for diversity because THEY AREN’T REAL.
I’m tempted to post a link to the N.K. Jemisin Twitter thread, but I doubt it would help.
https://twitter.com/nkjemisin/status/1105950917537513472
The essay about worldbuilding and politics that you mentioned here recently might also be relevant, to commenters who were genuinely willing to listen.
https://www.hindustantimes.com/columns/all-worldbuilding-without-exception-is-political/story-iE1Gc0R4ULSq8khLaJ1dEO.html
Shes a great writer. I loved the Broken Earth trilogy and need to read more of her books.
But aliens are real in the filmverse. Isn’t it good that they get representation too?
You know, I’d say you cannot really be this dense, but I’ve had three different online discussions this week prove me wrong.
I find myself rather skinny for one, I can see some of my own ribs. This isn’t even a joke, I’m plain serious.
There is a fourth now if you choose to assist.
Another atheist upset that people wearing religious garments means that they will be discriminated against
What on earth are you on about?
Another site that Lucy was referring to.
Now you are either being obtuse — in which case, educate yourself — or a troll, in which case — once again — fuck off.
You really like using fuck off don’t you? If I was a minor, would that be illegal?
– Also glad you finally figured out this one thread is me busting your… nevermind.
No, it wouldn’t be.
But if you were a minor, that would explain some of your half-baked thinking; hopefully you’ll learn better, in time. If you’re not a minor, then that’s just sad.
Yes mama, my statistics and evaluated detailed points are inferior to the mighty intelligence downplay you tell me of. Especially in other comment threads.
You said that men slightly outnumber women. Here’s a quote from the source you cited: “The sex ratio is: for every 100 females there were 97 males.”
That was some time ago, and I admitted I was wrong with that source. Also I didn’t see that line, so I had used a different source that measured only sex. Overall it wasn’t the best and I now have a better website to support my claims with. But well done catching that, seriously, you read and that’s good.
LOL. No. But now that you’ve admitted to being a troll, I am banning you.
“I been readin’ about you. How you work for the blue skins, and how on a planet someplace you helped out the orange skins and you done considerable for the purple skins. Only there’s skins you never bothered with — the black skins! I want to know, how come? Answer me that, Mr.Green Lantern.”
There’s a reason the word “diversity” is often replaced with “representation.” Green and blue and purple skins do not represent anyone here on Earth. They don’t give a little Black girl the thrill of seeing someone like her fighting evil (and if you don’t think that matters, you either don’t read much about popular culture, or you haven’t been paying attention).
I had the thrill of seeing both Friday, a well-made movie by Ice Cube, simple but effective and the Hunter Games movie series. Either I can just associate better with characters then arbitrary facts like race and gender, or I’m secretly a black woman? I see no reason why a little black girl, or a half-Hispanic half-American boy (Now we’re balanced in the diversity section) should not be able to get thrilled simply because the person doing it is a different race. By that sense, nearly Nobody in America would buy Kingdom Hearts since the protagonist, Sora is shown to be more Japanese than “white,” yet it has been met with exceeding success.
You known, I was about to go into a detailed explanation (there would have been links!), but you don’t care. You’d have found some other reason to dismiss the literally hundreds of Black, Latinx, Asian, Native, and other voices talking about how much it means to them to see someone who looks like them on screen/dancing ballet (google the new director of dance at Julliard for funsies)/singing opera and so, so many other things. You’ve already decided that anything to do with “identity politics” must be false, because hey, it’s never affected you, right? If you’ll excuse me, I have to go get my Gamora-ish hair color touched up.
Race and gender are not arbitrary. FFS.
OH FOR THE LOVE OF FUCK.
Everyone not a white man HAS BEEN DOING THIS ALL ALONG. The problem is that white men seem unable and/or unwilling to extend the same courtesy to the rest of us.
When it comes down to performance, it really is. I’m not going to rate an actor by their race, and whether they are American, Black, Asian et cetera all I really want to see is good acting and a good script.
As a white male, if you mean either solely action movies, or just all in general I assure you, that I do give the same courtesy. Will Smith for one, is one of my favorite actors for at least his past works, and among them is Men in Black, Wild Wild West, even Annie I had enjoyed. And as I’ve said before, Friday is another favorite. Now this is just me, but if you aren’t “in the thrill,” then you’re clearly bored or simply not the type of person that gets this movie (i.e., I’m terrible with romantic films, I consider their plots repeated and stale for the most part.) With this said, I will prove your statement wrong from at least one account. White critics are the majority, it’s been said in this thread and I will not disagree with that. If it was true that white men do not give this courtesy, then how is the ratings for MiB1 on average a 71 on IDMB (I consider RT a joke, but even their audience/critic ratio isn’t terribly skewed), 7.3 average rating AND an Oscar? As for Spawn (Another favorite with a black lead, the first black major movie), why is the USER average ratings higher than the critics, and their major issue being acting, lumping up on average everybody except the clown? And what of female leads such as Crouching Tiger, Aliens and La Femme Nikita? All mainstream, not even in their own right but actual famous works with the possible exception of La Femme Nikita (to be honest I first found it out from the worse of the two Nikita’s). All of this, would not have been made famous had the audience and the critics alike not been thrilled, and as I’ve mentioned before, white male critics at that. All those Alien sequels and arcade games out there, wouldn’t have been the same if at all existent without Sigourney Weaver.
And there it is: “But Ripley!”
Or he doesn’t care.
Yes, he’s a desensitized evil beast of a person who hates seeing nonwhites in any medium and fiercely advocates against it. And Hispanics I guess, since he’s half of that.
Hey, if the shoe fits…
I did just have to comment on something, here. I teach college writing, and two days ago, I had a student propose as a topic that Captain Marvel was too feminist a film.
She decided to write about PETA instead. I was very grateful.
I’d like to imagine you had some influence on her decision.
Student: “I want to write about how Captain Marvel is too feminist.”
You: [OMINOUS GLARE CONVEYING THE SILENT FURY OF A THOUSAND SUNS] “Interesting. Are you quite sure?”
Student: “Or… uh… PETA? Yes, I’ll do PETA.”
Heh. Well, she knows how I feel about the movie.
“Too feminist.” Hilarious.
Lots of people are (it doesn’t mean Hollywood will generally notice them or give them a shot, even if you can always point to A FEW exceptions). But look at all the howling and whining when Jordan Peele said “I choose not to cast white leads in my own original stories, which I write and direct.”
After which you proceed to trash the “forced insertion” of female characters in The Last Jedi and mock Brie Larson for ADVOCATING FOR DIVERSITY. Okay then.
The main outrage I’ve found so far is people disliking Jordan’s comments, is due to him being one of many who take part in “anti-white racism.” Now for this one specific instance, I’m a bit mixed on the issue. On one hand, he’s deliberately avoiding white actors for their race, hence some form of discrimination. On the other hand, the final say on who goes in his movies is HIM, so it’s an entirely subjective stance. It all comes down to your definition, and I’ll side with my latter stance that it’s his say, since that’s what I agree with. However, I also stand by “If an actor is good, who gives a damn what race they are?” This is one subject I’ve noticed I’m shaky on, so take with a grain of salt.
I already gave my reasons why I found TLJ’s diversity point trash. It is because it was painfully inserted for solely that reason. If you want diversity, that is perfectly fine, but as a moviegoer I expect to see this as a POSITIVE trait to the movie, and not something I find disgusting.
And I don’t mock Brie Larson for advocating in diversity, that’s merely the shell of her point that I wish to laugh at. Think about if she said “I do not wish for the press tour to be exceedingly black,” and you’ll have a huge riot. So you substitute another race for blacks, why should this be any less of an outrage?
In hindsight, I think it comes down to how people say and interpret what these Hollywood elites have to say. They make their point very simple and in a way that doesn’t pronounce any speculation to definition, so people will also interpret it the same way as they say it. Simple, unchallenged definition to what they interpret it as. Brie Larson is great with making those, which is why she’s gotten a lot of bad rep before her film came out.
Please explain to me why Rose Tico, who HAPPENS to be played by an Asian actor, is “painfully inserted forced diversity,” and why you find her casting disgusting.
I had absolutely no problem interpreting Larson’s comments the way they were intended. But any suggestion of bringing new voices and perspectives to the table always threatens the ones who have previously dominated the table.
Gladly. I’ll spreadsheet the casting and plot points for each character.
One black guy who has a redemption arc we never touch on… check.
One Asian girl to do something/be unneeded love interest to black guy… check”
“One Guatemalan to be bashed by Vice Admiral who ends up being wrong anyways… check!”
If Rose Tico was a European, American or Hispanic, I’d still say almost the same thing about her acting. And either way, what purpose does she serve? What reason is Rose Tico even needed in the story, other than for another racial checklist? She was basically the side girl the entire time we saw her, except when she divebombed Finn from an early Hollywod pay-cut. And then kissed him… because that was totally touched on before. Finn at least had a purpose in TFA as a janitor/person who could navigate Not-Deathstar/Starkiller, but in here he’s ultimately left as a side quest. And while you could argue that he was after the codebreaker, my response would be… “And what if he didn’t? What would change, Phasma still being alive? Yeah that was real important as it was.”
The painful forced diversity is in its essence, a scrappy B-plot that has no purpose other than to juggle minorities in a checklist.
And the table was already “threatened” by Wonder Woman and Alita Battle Angel. But you don’t see massive outrage there do you?
Your points about character and plot are debatable, but they would be the same complaints if the characters were white. It’s the mere fact that they happen NOT to be white that makes you think it’s “forced diversity.” That’s your problem, not the film’s.
I was talking about Larson’s call for more kinds of critics with different perspectives. But it seems you’ve forgotten all the sexist crap Gal Gadot had to put up with since she was first cast. And the fanboys and MRAs have embraced Alita as a male fantasy of a “born sexy yesterday” female character, and using her as a cudgel against Captain Marvel (as you’re doing right now).
The entire point about character and plot points is that they would be the same except if they are white. That’s where I get my forced diversity theory from, because there still serves no purpose for their film-existence other than aforementioned minority juggling. If they were white, it obviously wouldn’t be forced diversity: just bad plot design.
As for Larson’s comments, I get what you are coming with. And yes, different perspectives is totally a good thing, just race/culture isn’t the only type of perspective there is, and reducing the level of its discussion to such boils it down to apparent racism, to which is why people dislike her. Funnily enough, you seem to side with Brie on a race-monitored press event, but when shown a post detailing presumably Islamic people as having criminal records, you jump to calling them out for racism.
You’ve ALMOST got it. You’re SO CLOSE.
Plot design is a separate issue from diversity. If you think Rose and Finn are “forced diversity,” then you must think there’s a reason for the Star Wars universe to be naturally populated mostly with white humans. Please explain why Rose and Finn (regardless of any character or plot flaws) can’t happen to look like Asian or black people, in the context of the story and the universe.
What the hell does one have to do with the other? Larson wants to hear from and talk to different kinds of people. The other commenter was singling out incidents of Islamic terrorism to denigrate an entire population. You’re really reaching now.
The Star Wars universe does have a lot of white humans, but equally a lot of other races, most prominently noticed in EU, but also within movies. Tatooine, filled with all kinds of species, I can only recall at max 3 other humans aside from Luke and Obi Wan, the bartender, one of the two goons who harassed Luke, and one for benefit of doubt. The Empire was later proven to be actually quite racist, hence why their stormtroopers and staff were all humans with the exception of Thrawn.
Besides, humans are MUCH easier to fill in as extras than aliens, especially for a starting film such as A New Hope, or even Empire Strikes Back, which has a lot of humans if I remember. There were also the Ughnaughts in Bespin, as well as the mercenary Bossk, and IG-88. Jabba’s barge had lots of non-human partiers, as was his forther slave and the people within his palace too. Going to the prequels, there are two individual alien races in Naboo, the Jedi order has for humans: Obi Wan, Anakin, Mace Windu, and that’s all for majors. (Even the other dark-skinned Jedi who died to Sidious, was a Zabrak not human). Humans have been said to be a very high population, but not mostly. And this is just coming from the movies, where you’d expect the most humans due to extras.
And I literally never said Finn and Rose couldn’t look black or Asian, I said their existence in the film is not needed because they serve no purpose to the plot. I an honestly tired of saying this over and over, but it DOES NOT MATTER UNIVERSE-WISE WHAT THEY ARE. It’s what I had said before about in-production racial check boxes, that deem their existence in the film… as a B-plot.
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On your own with a press release, you talk to different kinds of people. Rich, poor, experienced, young, overly-analytical, not that, lots of character traits that aren’t necessarily defined by race. It’s how she said it, that I have said makes her appear guilty and not innocent. And as I said with the other person in their defense, they never “singled” out or provided any kind of hate to Islamics. He is not required to find white-person, or black-person crimes simply because it’s racist if he doesn’t, because it’s not. If I was to only give examples of Hispanic crime in a single giving at random, would I be being racist to myself?
Yes.
Bye.
Well folks you heard it, I’m a victim of my own racism. Funny what counts for that nowadays.
“Disgusting”? You find people who aren’t white men disgusting?
Funny how this never seems to apply to people who aren’t white.
If the press corps were dominated by black men in a culture dominated by black men and she was working to change that, she’d be absolutely correct. But we do not live in that culture, so she would never have to say that.
Systemic barriers don’t have to be ILLEGAL. And you’re pointing out the successes that are EXCEPTIONS to the general trends.
Oh lord, I don’t have the time to educate you. Go google stuff and learn. Here, I’ll get you started.
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/18/movies/hollywood-separate-and-unequal.html
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/women-minorities-be-hired-paid-hollywood-983163
Hollywood report:
Lacks proven statistics, and makes the stance that “X equals 10 percent of population therefore X can only have 10 percent of job-Y in population,” a (pardon me language) stupid and downright evil opinion. That would be the most racist and anti-meritocracy policy you can get, since you deny people 100% by their race and only for that, in a widespread enforced system.
I’ll read NYtimes in a bit, I’m currently getting lots of notifications. BTW is there a way to paste GIFS, I could really use a Burly Brawl from Matrix Revolutions to describe my current situation.
Newsflash: We’re already living in a racist and anti-meritocratic system. If you don’t see that, it’s because in many ways the system benefits you.
Of course we are, and you won’t fully negate the affects of racism. It’s a suicide mission to try to get everyone to stop, but at the very least the USA has done well. Why else are minorities then allowed to comment on these racism issues without being policed online?
And for anti-meritocratic… that’s the the USA Teacher’s Union in a nutshell. Another topic for another time.
So we should shut up and be happy because at least we don’t have it as bad as some other places? No thanks.
A lot of women, LGBT folks, and minority communities will take issue with your claim that this nation has “done well.”
Nice way of putting it as an extreme, I’d very much like to quote the Strawman fallacy on you. I never said you had to shut up and be happy, rather that it’s impossible to fully remove it, and you’d be exhausting yourself trying to police everybody into it. And it’s certainly not as bad as other places, so at least you can see that as progress rather than “this country still isn’t solved in all its racial issues, therefore we are in hell.”
I’d love to meet these people who will have issues with my claim.
Edit: I got rid of the part with Milo, since I realize that was stupid and done within the heat of me replying to multiple comments. However I still stand by the ridiculousness of being considered a troll after taking considerable hours making debatable content just for one single sentence.
And I never said it was possible to fully remove it, but it’s interesting how much you object to me merely pointing out the scope of the problem.
Again: a lot of communities here would say they’re in hell. If you don’t think you’re in hell, then you’re lucky. (I’d say privileged, but I wouldn’t want to trigger you.)
If you’re not meeting anyone who can show you how bad things are for many people in many parts of America, then you’re living in a bubble. And if you’re now openly claiming Milo Yiannopoulos would agree with your arguments, then I know you’re definitely trolling here.
Bye.
Then what are you suggesting? You’re providing me with one extreme, and being elusive on the other. I can tell you’re pointing out the scope, but how far do you believe we need to go? I never objected to you doing anything, I merely advised from a certain standpoint, that it would be impossibly to fully remove it. By all means do whatever you want to stop it, as long as it doesn’t involve bashing the entirety of my own racial community (whites), which I wouldn’t even know if you would, there’s no reason for me to even try stopping you.
And yes, I am privileged. Not “white male privileged,” but in the sense that I have a stable economy where I am. I am happy to be a citizen of the USA, and live within the top 1% of the income in the entire world.
As I said before, I would like to meet with people who have these issues, namely because thinking and arguments is my thing, and it would be helpful to fellow man. With all this said, I guess living in a generally calm and content area that doesn’t promote hell for women or minor communities is me living in a bubble. Because there’s nowhere in the USA that people can live there lives without 1 in 10 having a political or even emotional issue so dire they need to discuss it with people they don’t know as more than an average friend.
And as for your final comment, I guess taking time and effort to provide detailed comebacks that are longer than four sentences are trolling. This trolling was definitely very fun.
Christ, you’re exhausting.
With every comment, you demonstrate just how blinkered, naive, and ignorant you are. Keep it up! You discredit yourself more and more.
Well, I’ll continue writing my 4-paragraph counterclaims and you can I guess still write snarky two-sentences with no constructive input! At this rate, at least I’ll have credit to blow.
tl;dr
I am closing this thread. But I invited all the whiny manbabies to read this important thread on Twitter and perhaps begin to understand why this movie is so beloved by so many, and how it is a gamechanger:
https://twitter.com/GeneticJen/status/1113715734746750976